feel bad 4 them

well., just wrote some good stuff and hit the back button by mistake, so its gone...crap

Bottom line is we'll have to agree on what we think "fair" really is. I think of all that money that Exxon's, and other company's, CEOs and executives make and think, what if we just took 1 or 2 mil of their salary and but it towards, lets say, a new medical center, further education, reknew and refurbish government housing, etc... How would that guy's life who makes 39 mil a year differ that much if he only made 38? 35? 30? 20 GOD FORBID! Not all THAT much, especially when there are people on the streets.

It is the governments responsibilty to provide those things that private companies cannot, and the government needs the money they can get. This tax cut is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. I know a guy who got a check in the mail for $400, woo hoo, great, ALL HIS FINANCIAL PROBLEMS WERE SOLVED! The top 2% of the country got about 98% of the tax break! Billions of dollars that could have been put to good use went to the people. Their excuse: the rich will put it back in the economy. Well, the government just took billions that couold have gone to cancer research, and put it in the hands of the richest executives in America, HOPING they will expand their businesses.

Again, the tpyical argument against this is that the rich earned it. But I think this is a very selfish way of looking at things. What I meant when I said they get more out of the government is that, not only did they get the bigger tax breaks (unfortunately), the rich guy is having more protected by the government services out there, where the homeless guy has nothing to lose.

Maybe I just like giving too much, but I certaintly dont think the rich guy is being PUNISHED by having higher taxes.... I do not see how you think its fair that the sales tax on a shirt for a rich person is almost nothing compared to his income, while for the poor person, it is huge, how the heck is that fair? I wouldn't say b/c the "poor guy made some bad decisions, isn't as smart as the rich guy, etc..." That idea is making the poor poorer and the rich richer! Goldman Sachs just gave out 16.8 BILLION in bonuses... some executive got a check for $500 million! I havent lived on welfare, and hope I never have to, but if you are exposed to some of these peoples living conditions, I hope, i really hope, that you will not see as a progressive tax "punishing" the rich. It is simply the law. And, I cannot think of one person who has deliberately not tried to be sucessful to avoid higher taxes...

I'm sure theres more to say but thats all the crap that comes to mind now...

good convo btw

p.s. not proofread at all, tired as hell

Great debate here.
Some food for thought.

Two men of equal means begin their journey through life. Man A, pays his way through school and eventually owns a thriving buisness.
Man B get's a goverment grant to pay some of his schooling and gets student loans to complete the same degree as man B. After college, man B defaults on school loans, works dead end jobs, becomes a drunk and eventually becomes a begger on the street.

Which man needs the goverment's aid and why?

I fall with AbunDiga on this topic, true capitalism only works when it rewards hard work and talent with a proportional return. If you implement a so-called "Fair Tax" you have just made it possible for the top 10% of the country and all thier decendents to never again do a days work, or take a reasonable risk of capital in thier lives.

The money behind the disinformation on these topics typically comes from those who make more money than they can spend (and therefore be taxed under a "Fair Tax" setup, and they don't make it because they are working 400 times harder or smarter than their employees or because they made some better decisions, with few exceptions these are people born with advantages. I have worked on a daily basis with a billionaire (Todd W. Herrick), and met a few more along the way and they were all running their fathers, or their grandfathers company's. I can say without any doubt that if there were no income taxes their companies would have been boarded up years ago and they would be makeing a safe 6% on thier billions (60 million a year per billion is more than you can spend). With compound interest and no taxes the fortune would grow every generation without any of the future dependants ever so much as taking a risk. Talent and Money removed from the economy forever is not good capitalism.

I don't begrudge people the american dream, I make 80k a year as a 30 year old, and I hope to make more, if I make enough I would love to provide all my decendents with a comfortable future and even with our pre GWB tax giveaways to the rich it was possible for people to do so, but it should remain the vast exception to the rule.

I have no love for oil companies because they make money on a resource that they had no hand in producing, and the use of which has negative externalities which effect not only everyone in the current world but also all those that will come after.

As for 10 percent profits, that 10% number is a return on sales and doesn't reflect inventory turns. Walmart makes about 3 percent return on sales but somehow all the waltons are billionaires? When we talk about our investments and returns we talk about return on the investment over a year. If walmart turns over its inventory 20 (it was actually alot more than that last I checked) times a year and makes 3 percent a turn thats an annual return on investment of 60%, (actually more because the 3% gets reinvested and compounded but you get the idea). Its the same way with Exxon Mobil how many inventory turns do you think they do in a year? My guess its about the average number of times a truck shows up to fill the tanks at the average gas station, similar to the number of times an average person fills thier gas tank in an average year, thats a lot of 10% turns, if it was 1% of each fill up they wouldn't shut the doors. If it was an efficient market with no lobbyists, no monopolys, no wars, no tarrifs, no preferential contracts that allow them the use of oil taken off of public land someone else would open up and do it for less.

Basically I expect businesses and the rich to take care of themselves, and I prefer to worry about those hard working innovators who werent born with advantages.

Final meandering thought, taxing income less does not increase investment in business. Investment in business is not taxed, only profits or income. Business owners invest more back in the business to avoid paying taxes on profits that are above what they can or want to spend, I have seen this first hand, it is what keeps people with multimillion or billion dollar companies in business and thier money in circulation buying equipment and paying salaries. The above mentioned billionaire, owns 49% of a multibillion dollar corporation that spent 650 million dollars on an aquisition three years ago in a year when the company reported 27 million dollars in profits. That was about 1% on sales, he didn't close the doors, he didn't retire, he expanded his net worth through work and the risk of taking on a new company, if there was no income tax the company would have been sold off years ago and he would be getting progressively richer without working or risking his capital forever...

Economics isn't simple any solution that sounds too simple to be true probably isnt.

my 2cents..
Joe.

This thread needs some boobs.

Hollywood wrote: This thread needs some boobs.

JoeinNY wrote: lobbists or buy our own candidates.

Not those kind of boobs.

poster112 do you work for the government, I am just kidding please don't get mad. I originaly started this as a rant. Didn't mean to make anyone mad at each other.

But I guess we can talk about faiths next. After all your not supposed to talk about politics, faiths, and can not think of the third one that your not supposed to talk about with friends, family, and co-workers.

But I have seen, heard and learn some very interesting points to think about because of this thread.

But Ken can you please ease are pain and lighten the mood with some of your infinite stash of pics.

I'm all for pics, as well.
No, I don't work for the government, just the Workers Comp and General Liability insurance companies, which is much, much worse. I do get to meet and chat with small business owners every day and see what they have to do just to try and survive, which means wrestling with the idea of laying people off and how to grow their businesses. Some of these folks are "rich", but I've met very few that have had anything handed to them.
Man I don't know about ya'll, but I am no financial genius. Until I can figure out how to get rich, I'm going to try to keep the government off what little money I do have. This is the best plan that I've heard, yet.
Instead of joining the chorus of folks that hate the rich, we should try and be rich.

I have a great family and a Correct Craft. I'm rich beyond measure with those few things!!

Everyone has good points here, but don't you realize that you (the general 'you') wouldn't be able to get "rich" or make money, for that matter, without the government, and the taxes that EVERYONE pays? It is your way of giving back. I don't know enough about econ. to say this well shortly either, but I'll give it a shot with a short anology...

When you turn 65 and are offered medicare and get a discount on medical items, or if you get a discounted transportation ride, would you call that fair? Why should these people get breaks? The answer is because when you were young, your taxes, no matter what, went towards the 65+ yr olds when you were young. So, when you are of that age and need the care, the government "gives you a break" and you get the discounted prices. Same goes for things like Social Security--the place that is SUPPOSED to be safe where money is stored to be returned to us when we are seniors, but some dude is taking money FROM SS TO the War. (but thats a whole different story) This might not affect you, but prob. me...

Again, I'm no professor so Im sorry if this isnt totally clear.... I also stand behind my point about the more affluent guy having more to protect than the lesser guy. If I have $20 bucks in my pocket and you have $200, the same military and police is protecting your 200 as my 20, but if the same service is protecting MORE for you and LESS for me, it seems fair that you would have to pay more for that service. Why should a portion of my taxes go towards protecting your 200 bucks? Well, thats the point I'm trying to make about progressive income tax--it is the "only" fair way we have to make sure each person pays an equal PORTION, key word there, of their wealth. If the rates were equal, the portions wouldn't be the same--its not as simple as just a percentage, the rate must go up on the wealthier guy to keep his portion of wealth going towrads taxes as the poorer guy's.

Lastly, I'm not saying this government is perfect, there are plenty of things I find wrong with it, plenty. I also agree that the welfare system is f'd up myself. However, I'm also skeptical about saying we should do without it. I also know someone who had a happy life, and went all downhill from there. Had many family & financial problems, hit rock bottom, finally found a cheap min. wage job and was starting his way back up. After about a hear, he said f it, and said it'd be easier to live on welfare. Its sad...

likin the convo.. also agree its good to see that people care, i guess

post some pics brosef 8-)

Poster112 wrote: You are still making socialist points when you talk about portions of income. (From each according to their ability to each according to their need)

Actually Socialism is from each according to ability to each according to his deeds.

Communism is from each according to ability to each according to his need.

But do carry on. I'm rather enjoying this. BKH

87BFN

Now you are talkin! Every day the people I see milking the system. One at 18 that gets social security because she has trouble "paying attention", another on SS because he shot himself in the stomach putting a gun in his waitband and he's now "disabled", calling an ambulance when you're only a block from the hospital for a headache, the list goes on and on. Guess who's paying all those bills and paying for the services nd not using any of them? You got it, the good ol middle cla$$ guy. Okay, I've said my peace.

David

Way to give back? You have to understand that the whole reason the person made that much money was made possible by the gov't! I know this seems very abstract and your initial reaction is probably shooting this idea down, but if you think about the corporations through which a "rich" person made money, the government makes it possible for people to become wealthy, that is how you GET something from them...

lol can't wait to hear the responses to this.. woops

Yeah, i knew it'd sound absurd, and I wish I had a real answer for you. I don't think highly of the gov't at all, despite what what I say may sound like.

And I guess I have to explain what I meant about the 'govt giving back.' Again, I wish i knew more, i dont know everything i should right now, but from what I do know, i can say that I do not mean it in the literal sense that the govt will be sending you a check for your business. I mean it in terms of the gov't allowing you to start businesses, with taxes that it collected from EVERYONE, including the poorer people. For example, why is tax on buying property and expanding in general so much lower than simple income tax? This is because govt WANTS you to expand--this is how its "giving" you an opprotunity to expand/create your business to make you "rich." Also, the Fed (although independent) can lower the banking interest rates, promoting you to invest less due to low rates, and put that money towards expansion. This is bad for inflation because it increases the flow of money faster than the supply of goods and services, but it DOES promote, aka help, or "give," you an easier opprotunity to expand than if these programs/ideals from the govt didnt exist. So, those are just two examples of ways that the gov't makes it POSSIBLE for you to become rich.. I hope that helps and sounds less absurd...

I'll be honest, I didn't read all of the fair tax thing you showed us, but I didn't comment on it directly either, so I think thats fair...

I've enjoyed the convo too yada yada yada and also think i've had enough....

but to end on one note... "This country is #1 because of it's citizens and what they do." Thats a pretty bold claim, America is #1... sure, its awesome, but there are a sh*t load of other sick countries too. I'd love to live in Europe some day... there are a lot of aspects of America that throw it down the drain, imho... but again, this is where we differ.. ;)

later

Abundiga, the government of our country does not "allow" you to open a business. They can restrict certain aspects of it, but they cannot keep you from selling goods to paying customers, unless they have restricted those goods (another argument for another day).
Secondly, the government sets tax rates to generate revenues in their local districts or states. They charge as much as they can without the people throwing them out of office. It has nothing to do with being nice.

Your right. You have much to learn.
Start by reading the US Constitution. It's not that long. You are not too far from Philly. Go to the Constitution Center there. You can learn alot just by doing that.
Our government does not give us our rights or our property. They sure as heck do not make a point to let us start businesses.

I just can't figure out where you have gotten the idea that our government helps us so much.

A pretty bold statement that this country is # 1 because of it's citizens??? What is wrong with you? Learn more about the founding of this country and what the purpose of our Constitution is. You will then not make such dumba$$ statements.

I've said to to before in another post, one country has to be the best. I want it to be the US. If you want it to be Europe, pack your bags. They would love you there. I think that it would be a great experience for you to go to Europe. Many countries operate just as you want this country to operate. You can see the result in places like France. It ain't pretty. make sure that you do not criticize their government, as they have no guaranteed freedom of speech as we have. Make sure that you do not offend muslims their, as the EU has now made that a crime, as well. You'll find that it is not quite like what you see in travel and fashion mags.

Agreed about complexity of taxes.
But, profit margin is profit margin. It is a margin of profit shown as a percentage of revenues. It is not that complicated. I was showing it on the gallon, as that is what folks are whining about. It is still a fact that a margin does not increase as revenues increase. But what good are facts when trying to debate something, right?

The Fair tax book was mainly written by John Linder, house republican, who introduced it. I don't know if it quite qualifies as "propaganda", though. The "Right-wing" Boortz just has the audience. I'll read your links and see what they have to say about it.

ROI is much different than gross margins, which are different from net margins, the examples above are greatly simplified. The oil industry is experiencing a period of great profitability. In 1998 and 1999 the opposite was true, the industry was bleeding badly which led to a round of consolodation worldwide, including the exxon mobile merger and the BP amoco merger, among others.

The fact is many industries and companies have higher net profit margins than Exxon Mobil. Be careful wishing for taxes on "excess" profits. Your company or industry could be next.


Gary