95' Nautique Project ... expanded |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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Or ruffle Pete's feathers and put on an orange one.
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2967 |
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Red filter.....no way! Instead of cleaning out that pesky fuel tank, how about one of these:
JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Yeah, double duty too - when it's dry you can use it as a fender or a throwable |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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I'm embarrassed to say we have the orange brand at the HD and it's the only brand we stock |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4127 |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Motorcraft@O'Reilly's
There is an HD a little over a mile down the road. But there's an O'Reilly's about a half mile closer. Sorry Pete, but I don't really like orange either |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Well guys, I finished all the odds & ends late last night including reinstalling the driver seat. Topped off the battery today while at work and put some fresh fuel in tonight when I got home. I didn't make it home in time to do the 20 minute lifter break-in that Mark outlined, but I just had to turn the key to make sure the fuel would prime and the engine would turn over with no hic-ups. Half a revolution and she growled, grumbled and rumbled !! Kind of scared me at first because I really didn't expect it to take off that quickly. Of course I shut her down quickly ... fighting the urge to give it just a few revs I don't know if I'll be getting home late again tomorrow night again ... but soon, gentlemen, soon
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Quick update - Connected the water tonight and started her up. Initially, I thought timing was way off and I couldn't get it to settle down. Then I remembered about the "plug" I was supposed to remove to set the initial timing. That got it and I was able to confirm my guess at stabbing the distributor was nearly perfect - that doesn't happen for me too often I also noticed a fuel leak but at first couldn't spot where it was coming from. Found it after a bit of searching - I just didn't get one of the fuel rail fittings completely tightened.
Ran the engine for 22 minutes, varying the rpm somewhat but keeping it somewhere between 1800 and 2200 for the most part complying with the cam and lifter break-in procedure Mark laid out. All in all a good first run, though there are a couple minor bugs I'll have to chase down such as the tach isn't working and I seem to have developed a leak at both exhaust manifold elbow fittings. Even this new engine has a bit of a surging problem from time to time so I am suspecting that pesky IAC is still not quite right somehow, unless someone has a better thought. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2967 |
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Well done lad. That boat will make you proud...
JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3748 |
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Very Nice, my 95 sometimes surges also. Never enough to bother me.
Glad it is running with no strange noises! Mark |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Well done Joe.
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Running the engine a bit more and for some reason I can't get the idle down below about 750-800. I've backed the idle screw off so it's not engaging at all and confirmed the butterfly is completely closed and I assembled everything with all new gaskets - it just won't idle down any further. Any ideas?
Thanks |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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There was a surging problem in the early ones that is why pcm updated the ecm’s, 290 tune opposed to the later 300. Tag is on the ecm as to what you have. Joe try disconnecting the throttle cable and see if it idles down. Maybe it’s in the wrong hole or the bracket is bent from the P.O.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Guess I did not see the part about you seeing the throttle plate closed
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Is this at normal 160 degree coolant temperature?
If temperature is low or the computer thnks it's low, there is extra spark advance provided by the computer and the IAC allows more air to bypass the throttle plate too. It might also be due to too many different colors being used in the engine compartment at the same time |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Yep Ken, that was it .... too many colors on the engine. Painted everything black and all is good
Seriously though, yes it was at op temp of 160 +/-. However I did reuse most of my old sensors so maybe the temp sensor for the ecm is bad? Though I don't really see the connection, but the new engine does have higher compression that a stock GT40 and the cam is a little bit more radical as well. Is there a possibility the ecm is trying to compensate and somehow causing the idle increase? |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Maybe the ECM can't compensate for the cam and compression changes
Has this run on the water yet? If it has, how does it run through the rest of the RPM range? If you haven't had it on the water, I think I'd try that before really getting too concerned And remember..............you're in uncharted territory with these changes on a GT40 |
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sport1999
Senior Member Joined: May-10-2015 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 313 |
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Congrats on the progress.
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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No, haven't been to the lake yet and I was sort of thinking the same - just trying to get a jump on things if there happened to be an issue. Uncharted territory .... yep. Cam really didn't bother me as he followed my instructions by not getting too carried away. But the compression sort of threw me a bit when he told me they'd set it up for 9.5:1 |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Thought I have heard of others changing to the higher compression P heads before with no problems. Did they go higher than what those do?
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Well Gary it's all a little confusing to me because I'd always heard that the original gt40 heads added more compression over the stock 351 heads. And yet looking at the specs from the owners manuals, the std. 240hp & 260hp 351's are listed as 8.3: 1 .... but so is the gt40. And while the gt-p heads do have a smaller chamber and thus will increase compression somewhat, again my understanding is that it's not a huge increase, maybe 0.5: 1 give or take. So is the original documentation of their compression incorrect or was I misinformed about there even being a difference in the stock vs (original) gt40 heads?
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3748 |
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Compression change will have no influence on the ECM.
The cam change with the early Ford Fuel Injection is pretty well known to cause issues. They can be worked around. My buddy's son has tweaked his to work with twin turbos and it runs just fine but he had to learn a lot about the ECM to make it happen. I would go to the Ford Mustang forum's to see how much cam the ECM can work with. 750 RPM at idle may only be 600 RPM in gear idle so as Keno suggested you might be fine as is. High idle many times is a sign of a vacuum leak somewhere in the intake system. On a brand new engine be careful to not let it heat up at all and never accelerate hard till it has been at full temp for a few minutes. On a brand new engine if you accelerate hard while the block is still cold you risk scuffing a piston. The more it breaks in the more this risk fades away.. I am totally willing to run a new engine at wide open throttle after warm up but as soon as it gets close to max RPM back it off and let it cool with easier motoring. Full throttle actually helps the new piston rings seat properly. On these maiden voyages stop every few minutes and lift the cover to check everything out. Check hose clamps, those heavy rubber clamps don't tighten well cold but can be tightened easy when warm while the boat is being used. You touched so many nuts and bolts to install this new beast it is easy to find one or two that never got torqued properly. It happens. Looking forward to the water test results. |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Thanks for all the input Mark. Ken and Gary as well. I know air leaks can cause the idle issue and that was one of the first things I checked. I'm 95% or more sure there isn't one, but again it may only become apparent once on the water and under load. I cleaned all the mating surfaces very well and installed all new gaskets everywhere as well as making sure everything was torqued to spec - one of the plusses I suppose of having so much down time waiting for the ling block to arrive.
I wish that someone had the machining specs for the original gt40 cam so I could do a side by side comparison. But by the way it idles and how it sounds my guess is that while it is a bit healthier, it's likely to be manageable by the ECM since she seems to idle smooth and rev well with no hic-ups. This weekend under some load I suppose will tell us much more |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Hi Joe
Sometimes I just amaze myself with my ability to remember stuff that's worthless to 99.9% of the world, but here's an old thread from "another site" with some good info. It shows the cam specs for a 285 hp Indmar 351 which are probably the same or really really close to the GT-40. Kyle on that site tells how he got those numbers by sending a cam to Comp Cams and having it measured and duplicated It's a little better than a 240 hp 351w cam. I'll let you judge the validity of the info You might even see a familiar CCF name in that thread link |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I have heard Joe but not confirmed that a 40 cam specs are - 210/219 duration @.050, 115 LSA, 456/457 intake / exhaust lift
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Same numbers as the link to Teamtalk I gave Joe. PS the link has a link to the cam card in a post by Kyle Post #13 has the link to the card. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Your typing faster than me today plus I had to find out where I had that info . Not to go off on another road but to the oil pump info on that thread I remember reading a number of years ago when Formula One was using V12's and 10's that someone's oil pumps only put out 10 lbs of pressure to keep parasitic load down. May have been BMW who's engines also spun at 19,000 RPM's. Of course at the time they used an engine for qualifying,then changed engines for the race,then rebuilt it after the race.Now days they only get so many engine changes then after they use that up get penalized and dropped down the grid.
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Awesome, thanks guys this helps a lot ! The specs for the Comp cam installed are
.478 / .485 lift intake/exhaust and 254 / 258 duration Intake/exhaust - so a bit more lift but apparently a marked increase in duration. Hmmm .... |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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You didn't read the cam card in the Mastercraft link Joe, otherwise you'd see some different duration numbers at .006 in lift.
Here's a picture I took of the printed out version I saved a number of years ago. The numbers you should be interested in to compare to what you give are .456 intake lift .457 exhaust lift 256 deg intake duration at .006 tappet lift 268 deg exhaust duration at .006 tappet lift Otherwise you're comparing apples to bananas The shorter duration numbers ( 210 and 219 degrees) are at .050 tappet lift |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11087 |
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Comparing your numbers to the original numbers,they're both pretty mild as far as cams go.
Not a whole lot of difference. |
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