Hard to Start |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | ||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: June-23-2018 at 4:30pm |
|
1999 280 hp (gt40 heads and a carburetor). Runs fine when warm. Very hard to start when cold. Do not really want to lean on the starting fluid.... I pump it 2 or 3 times with about 1/2 throttle opening when I crank it.
Looking for ideas please! |
||
Otto
|
||
MACS81SN
Senior Member Joined: May-27-2009 Location: NW OH / S. MI Status: Offline Points: 109 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Choke notcadjusted, heater coil open, no power to heater coil.
Are you getting squirts from accelerator pump when operating throttle? |
||
Mark
1999 -SN - 502 Python 1981 - SN Owned 33 years - Sold 1968 - Mustang - Sold |
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yes I am getting the accelerator pump. How can I check the heater coil? I will check the choke too! Thanks for your help! How does the heater coil affect that?
|
||
Otto
|
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
What is the position of the choke plate when the engine is cold? It should be almost closed and then slowly open as the engine warms. The bimetallic metal spring is the "heater coil" that opens the choke when ignition power is applied opening the choke.. The coil is under the round black cover on the side of the carb. One wire to it will be the hot off the ignition circuit and the other is the ground to the block. If the coil is bad it will typically Ohm at infinity.
|
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Great I will look at those on Monday when I ge home!!!! Thank you!
|
||
Otto
|
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Here is a picture of my carb. I think you are correct, the chock is not closing for the initial start. This is the way i found it when i took off the spark arrestor, I powered everything up like i was going to start it, cycled the throttle and it did not change position. I am very new at this but I can test it with your help. Can you give me some directions including voltmeter settings. I think I will have to replace this so where would be the best place to find one, what is the name of the part, and what other information do I need besides the year?
Are there any tricks to changing this out, or is it a straight forward disassemble/reassemble? Thanks! I think this will solve all my problems! |
||
Otto
|
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Chris,
Set your meter to the 20 volt DC scale and with the ignition switch turned to the run position you should get the nominal 12 volts between the terminals where the red and black wires are connected. Keeping in mind that the coil warms opening the choke plate so, it should slowly go to the open position. Give it a try and report back. Adjustment for the cold almost closed position (yours could be closed slightly more) is done when cold by loosening the 3 screws on the black coil cover and then twisting the cover. |
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I took off the leads and put the voltmeter on it. 9.75 volts. I have a brand new battery in the boat and I have not charged it. Also the top two screws that screw into the carb housing (top two screws on the anodized housing pic) are lose.
|
||
Otto
|
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Is there a way to test the coil? How do you adjust the choke, and how closed should it be?
|
||
Otto
|
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Chris,
I don't like the 9.75 volts you're getting at the coil. What are you getting at the battery? The two should be close. Charge the battery. Tighten the two loose screws then:
To check the coil, disconnect the wiring, set the meter to the Ohm scale then Ohm the two contacts where you got the volt reading.
|
||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Don’t worry about the procedure to “properly set” the choke. Adjust it wide open when cold and remove it from your list of potential issues. Once running properly, you may consider readjusting it... but I never do and wouldn’t recommend you bother.
|
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Battery over 12 volts at poles 12.78
Ohm meter reading when the meter is set to 20 k is 0.00 meter reads 1 as a base 9.8 is voltage at leads Next steps please!!!!!! |
||
Otto
|
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Once the initial start is done.... it runs nicely.... no other problems than the start! If I opened it up fully cold....wouldn’t it NOT start with out the fluid?
|
||
Otto
|
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Chris,
Here's Tim's wiring diagram: The choke should be seeing closer to the battery volts so take a look at the diagram and where the choke is connected. Note the hot lead goes the the full voltage side of the ballast resistor and should not be wired to the low volt side that goes to the ignition coil. Check it and get some more volt readings at the resistor. If the choke Ohmed at zero, it sound good. Once again, we are checking to make sure the choke opens. Since the choke is closed when the engine is cold, it will not help starting the engine. When you pumped the throttle, are you sure you saw fuel squirt down the manifold from the carb? |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Chris,
I've got to head to work for the late shift and put on the orange apron. Maybe Ken or anyone can pick up where I've left off? |
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yes I saw fuel! I will check the electrical....and report back with the readings! Do you think there is not enough voltage to close the choke for start? Thanks everyone if I can solve this problem it should be a good summer!!!
|
||
Otto
|
||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
||
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Tim Obviously Pete doesn't like your answer and sorta volunteered me to jump in. So Otto, let me say this "LISTEN TO TIM" Your choke adjustment isn't causing your start problem. The way your choke is set right now when cold, with 2 or 3 pumps of the gas and a small amount of throttle, the boat should fire right up. Then give it enough throttle to run at 1500 rpm or so for maybe a minute and you should be all set. You might have your hand on the throttle for that minute or so babysitting it while the choke is opening.. The big question would be................Is that your starting routine or in the first post are you saying that it's hard to start and then you have to pump it 2 or 3 times and then it will start for you? And for numbers, the resistance of the choke heating element should be about 10 ohms on the 200 scale. Near that is good, infinity is bad.. Roughly 10 volts to the choke is pretty normal too or in other words 10 volts isn't gonna keep it from starting easily. Once the engine is running, alternator output jacks that voltage up and if the element is working and properly connected to the arm inside the housing, over the next minute or so you should see the choke butterfly slowly go fully open. If it doesn't start with 2 or 3 pumps and your choke in that position you have other issues. So.............clarify what your starting routine is as a good beginning point. By the way Pete, glad to help |
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks!
My Starting routine I have tried this 2 different ways, 1) 2 Pumps with the Accelerator Pump, and 2) 3 Pumps of the Accelerator Pump. 1) Pump the Accelerator, leave throttle at the 45 degree angle (forward) 2) Crank Engine To get it started i usually have to open the throttle wide to get it to fore, then I reduce it for idle. once warm it accelerates normally and it will start with out moving the throttle outside of 90 degree (neutral). |
||
Otto
|
||
Otto Throttle
Senior Member Joined: October-02-2017 Location: Cleveland OH Status: Offline Points: 388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Ok...I have 10.1 Ohms at the 200 scale...
...next i found that the Throttle Choke would not close fully... ...It would close if I manually applied light pressure to it.... ...I used Remingtons REM Oil to lube the shafts connected to the choke lever.... ...The butterfly returns almost all the way shut now that it is lubed... ...I was looking for a spring that would return the choke to the full close position, but i couldn't find one... ...when i manually move the choke heating element to the wide open position and release it, the choke shuts fully now... ...when I slowly reverse the direction of the choke heating element it seems to get stuck a bit... I now understand how the choke heating element works to slowly open the choke as the engine heats up... QUESTION: When power is removed from the choke heating element, does it release fully to the full choke position OR does it slowly contract closing the choke slowly as the temperature falls? QUESTION: Is there a Choke return spring that should close the choke fully when cold, or power is removed from the choke heating element? Thanks guys! |
||
Otto
|
||
spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Im confident Keno will get you squared away. But since im reading through this and no one specifically addressed it, I will just to clarify. The choke closes withOUT voltage. So in a cold (non-electrified) state, the choke would be pretty much closing off the entire primary side. You can adjust how far it opens/closes when cold by doing the procedure Pete mentioned above. When electricity is applied, the coil inside the choke cap warms up causing the butterfly plate to open. Tim is suggesting to not even worry about the closing off of the primaries. By the time you turn on the ignition and run the blower for a few minutes as a pre-start procedure, the choke is already opening (negating a "cold" start type need) . So adjust the choke to just leave them open. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that had to give it a little throttle after start to warm it up. One thing different, I make sure the neutral switch is pushed in to give the first two pumps full pumps, vs with the switch out i can only go a few degrees. Be sure to pull the switch back out before you start though. I've heard others pump in the reverse direction. Good Luck! Spiral |
||
-Spiral
'89 Sport Nautique |
||
spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
well, i guess i was slow to hit "post" .
the element inside the choke cap is, in a sense, the spring. So yes, as the element cools, it closes. as it heats, it opens. |
||
-Spiral
'89 Sport Nautique |
||
KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I think spiral covered a lot of your questions.
Everybody has a routine. Some pump forward with short strokes with the neutral button out, some leave it in or pump backward like spiral said If you have to open the throttle fully to get it to start after a couple of pumps, I'd pump less, like once and try starting it. It might be getting too much gas and the extra air at the full throttle position clears things up and it starts Not sure on this new fangled stuff, but my blower runs with the key in the off position. Edit......... if you think it's not getting enough gas with your pumps, try 4 times, maybe that last pump to full throttle is giving it enough, but if you think it's too much gas with 2 or 3 pumps , then go down to one. Hard to determine without being there and seeing it |
||
spiralhelix
Senior Member Joined: August-06-2014 Location: IL/WI Status: Offline Points: 496 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
no, you are correct. I didn't finish my thought. turn on "ignition breaker" my blower turns on. and I'm guessing at some point the PO rewired something as my choke starts opening with just the ig breaker, not the "run" part of the ig switch. Guess I have some wiring to figure out |
||
-Spiral
'89 Sport Nautique |
||
SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Sounds like you might be flooding it, with throttle wide open.
Try a partial pump. It really doesn't take much gas to get it to fire, A strong spark is your friend here! |
||
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
||
Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2957 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
FWIW, I have my choke set to full open. Before starting, I pull-out the disengage button on the throttle lever. Then I give 2-3 full throttle pumps in REVERSE. This allows the full engagement of the accelerator pump. Moving the throttle in the forward position has limited movement. These raw fuel squirts into the carb throat provide a rich mixture to compensate for the disengaged choke.
JQ |
||
Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Tim, Ken, Joe, Chris, JQ,
Thanks for stepping in and helping Chris with his hard start problem. |
||
8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Tim,
Have you changed your recommendation on setting the choke? You said this:
Now you mention this:
|
||
TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If someone knows how to set the holley choke to spec and tells you it’s not worth bothering, that should tell you something, right Pete?
I have seen improperly adjusted chokes cause plenty of problems. I have never had a carbureted 351w that started cold without throttle input, including those whose chokes were set perfectly. 1-2 pumps of fuel and a slightly cracked throttle when cold, keep the rpm’s at 1200 for 30sec and you should be good to go. Bypassing the choke is one of the first things I do on a new boat or new carb. |
||
throttle out
Senior Member Joined: May-11-2015 Location: Chelsea, MI Status: Offline Points: 153 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
OTTO
I would like to see you come to your boat cold and follow this procedure. Immediately turn your blower on and let it run for at least 30 seconds. Pull the knob to disengage the trans and give the throttle two full whacks and bring it all the way back to the neutral position. start the engine without touching anything but the key. If you could report back what it does that would be huge step forward. Following this procedure my boat fires up with authority every time. Sometimes when its a bit cooler it will immediately fire and slowly die, if this happens give her one more whack and return to neutral position and fire it back up. |
||
1989 Ski Nautique 2001 351 PCM w/ 1-1.23
|
||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |