GT40 engine help. Please! |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Posted: September-27-2018 at 10:40pm |
Hi all, I am kinda new to the forum. I recently got a 98 Ski Nautique with my dad and brother. It was sitting in a lot abandoned for 8 years. Unfortunately they left the plug in and it retained water up to the plugs. We are fairly sure that no water got into the engine but it did ruin the starter and a couple other things. At this point we have changed the oil, replaced the spark plug wires, the distributor(but possibly not the right kind, marine but 351) replaced the rotor and cap and checked the plugs.
It starts well and seems to run but it runs rough and it has no power. The hole shot is minutes and even when it finally gets to cruising speed, 32 at best, if you turn or swerve, it drops on power and really struggles. Some things I worry about is the gas and possibly the timing or distributor, but I am really just shooting in the dark. Please, any help of where to go at this point would be really helpful. Thanks in advance. |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I'm curious, when you replaced the distributor did you use a timing light to re time the engine? Did you remove the spout connector first? When you do time it,you remove the spout connector,run the engine at 1000 rpm and set at 5 degrees BTDC. If you did all that then it sounds as if the firing order is off. Do you happen to know the Ford part number for the distributor you did buy?
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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This is something that I had thought might be the culprit, but have not checked. The guy I bought it from replaced the distributor from "some other ford in the yard" and when I first checked it out it was obvious that it was something wrong with the timing. Since then he worked on it some more and got it to run a little smoother and today was the first time we were able to take it out and see how it ran. :( I will check the timing and see if this is the issue and report back. If there is anything else in the meantime please feel free to add. I hope to completely restore her but I need to get her running well first. Thanks!
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2005 Ski Nautique
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Jonny Quest
Grand Poobah Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2957 |
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It certainly sounds like distributor and / or timing is causing your problems. Spend the money and get a marine specific dizzy for your engine. Don't scavenge one off some junk engine -- just my $0.02. Your engine needs fuel, air and spark to run. Pretty simple. Don't scrimp on the spark.
JQ |
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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There is no "marine" specfic distributor for the GT40 though, that's why I asked for its part number if he can find the one on it. Let's see what is in it and go from there. If it fits a 351 and its plug matches the wiring harness he might be good to go.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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SInce this is a 98 Ski Nautique and you say it's a GT40 that would mean it's fuel injected.
A 98 could also be had with a carbureted 351. Many people confuse things as far as terminology goes on these engines and call the standard carbureted engine a GT40 which isn't right So just to verify what you have ..............is it fuel injected or does it have a carburetor? It'll make a big difference in how you go about getting it running right Pictures of the engine and distributor would be good too |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Fuel injected.
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2005 Ski Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Well at least you don't have to worry about the carburetor, but that leaves you plenty of other stuff to deal with like computers and injectors and sensors. In the link below is the 301 page GT40 service manual from the reference section here on CCF if you don't already have it link Like you said earlier, I think I'd be worried about the fuel system too after things sat for 8 years |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Check the pressure at the fuel rail. Easy to do, would rule out fuel pump or regulator.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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Have you drained the transmission. If the engine was deep in the water the tranny was underwater. You may have a rusted up transmission in your boat with tons of drag.
Losing RPM while turning seems to point out your engine is way off on Horse Power. Using a Dial Back Timing Light would allow you to watch your timing and see if it is working properly without tearing the distributor apart. The Dial Back feature allows you to check the exact timing at all the different RPM speeds. Idle to 4,000. It is very important for the distributor to function correctly or the engine will not make power. |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Yeah, the tranny had some water in it but seems to be running somewhat clean now. We changed the fluid but it is something on the list to change or repair.
So far we have found that 2 & 5 were wired up wrong so that will be a big help. We are going to check the timing tomorrow. How do you check the pressure on the fuel rail? Just a pressure gauge on the valve? |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Pressure check in section 3H of GT40 service manual
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Plug wires in the wrong location would likely be most of your problem, but I'd still give it a once over throughout to be sure.
Fuel pressure gauge on the valve located starboard side rail at the front. Check with ignition on, engine off - Should be 39psi +/- 3psi - and also ignition on engine on, which I think is 31 +/- at idle. |
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Probably not much in them now days since alot of their old functions are now controlled by the ECM right Mark? The PIP sensor must take the place of other makes crankshaft position sensor? I know some crankshaft sensors are in the most difficult places to get at to replace,being mounted in the distributor housing would make things alot easier |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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You are correct Gary, crankshaft sensors and the ECM have taken over timing on FI engines. I still don't know the GT40 electronics outside Fuel Injection.
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gt40KS
Gold Member Joined: August-05-2017 Location: Wichita Kansas Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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I thought I read the PIP was the Ford equivalent of a cam position sensor ... so is the the cam or crank?
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JCCI
1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Page 2A-8 of the service manual has some information from Ford about what the PIP does
I don't think the system was sophisticated enough to need separate camshaft and crankshaft position sensors |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Update - So we found at least one sets of wires crossed. Somehow 1 & 6 were reversed. Running much smoother. So now I think it is a matter of setting the timing correct. Only trouble we can’t find TDC on the wheel. Does anyone have an idea or pic of what it should look like? I am not sure if the rust and paint has made it unreadable or not.
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2005 Ski Nautique
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3735 |
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I believe if the setting is close the computer will take over and control timing. Try a test run now and see how it performs.
Now that it runs well check your dip sticks on the Engine and Tranny to make sure all the water is out. If it looks milky you still have water in there. I know I was one to recommend checking the distributor. My mistake, I did not pay attention to the fact this is a Fuel Injected engine. The computer does a lot of the work for you on timing. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Here's a picture of what the marks on the harmonic balancer should look like. The picture is of a reverse rotation balancer, your's would be normal rotation so the markings/numbers will be going the other way from the TDC mark, but you should get the idea I'd put the engine at or near TDC and look at the timing pointer mounted on the timing cover and the marks should be below the pointer since the engine runs. To get the engine at/near TDC find the #1 terminal on the distributor cap and make a mark on the distributor body just below that with a magic marker, paint etc. Then take the cap off and rotate the engine by hand till the rotor is pointing at that mark you made. A 15/16 socket on the harmonic balancer bolt works good to turn it over by hand. Now look at the pointer and the graduations should be under the pointer. You'll probably have to do some cleaning/wire brushing to be able to see them good enough. Then you can put the cap on, get the timing light out and follow the directions in the manual from a handful of posts back and check the timing |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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So we got the timing worked out and found that three fuel injectors had gone bad. I think the power is now there but it is acting like it is running out of gas and dies. I can let it sit for a moment and then it will start back up. It will do this over and over until I get it back on the trailer. I am going to look at the pick up tubes in the fuel tank and also during all this I mangled the fulel line between the regulator and the FCC. It is acting like there is fuel pump issue...?
What else should I be looking at? Probably another issue - it occasionally gets stuck at 3000 rpms. Could this be related? |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Figured out the fuel supply issue.
Still having the idiling issues. Where should I be looking? The more I ran it, it seemed to get better but still would get hung up on high idles. Revving the engine would usually bring it back down. |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Figured out the fuel supply issue and it was____________________(feel free to fill in the blank) Is it a steady high idle or a cycling up and down type of idle? When does it get stuck at 3000 rpm or is this the "high idle"? |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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... needed more fuel in the fuel tank.
It is steady. It doesn’t always go to 3k, sometimes it is 3500 and sometimes less. |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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I think as a start, I'd be checking the throttle body to see if it's physically hanging open some.when you move the throttle back to idle speed That's not a high idle, that's a screaming fast idle |
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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ill check that
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2005 Ski Nautique
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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UPDATE:
So far the timing was off. Crossed spark plug wires. 3 fuel injectors were bad. 1 spark plug was bad. Now the throttle is catching and I think it is either the cable or something in the throttle control. Hoping to sort it out today. |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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man0seven
Senior Member Joined: September-16-2018 Location: Utah Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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So I replaced the cable and cleaned up both the throttle assembly and the throttle body and it fixed the sticking idle. So thank you @keno. Now that it doesn’t stick the idle roams up and down at the bottom and I will see if I can sort that out. Thank you all for all the help. You and this forum have been invaluable. Thank you for all the time that you give to helping all us less intelligent. |
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2005 Ski Nautique
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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I think you got a word wrong there, it should be Thank you for helping us less experienced [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle[/IMG If you ask me, you're doing a pretty slam bang good job getting things figured out |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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For your idle, do a search here on CCF for GT40 loping idle and good luck
Easiest way is to use Google, search "correctcraftfan GT40 loping idle" You'll come up with something looking like this link link |
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