Rudder Play |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Very, very minimal. I can't remember any vibrations of any sort from this past summer. I was also trying to be cautious of sounds/feels while out this summer being that it was my first with the boat and it is older than I. But, like I said in posts prior, the boat ran fantastic! I am quite shocked that it ran so well and yet I am having this issue... I wish I called off sick today so I could have a little more time with the boat and getting in there to see whats going on
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Okay. So, I finally got this all disassembled and the rudder removed from the boat. Rudder port is also out. The good news is that the rudder port and rudder are in excellent condition. No issues there, whatsoever.
Now, for the issues. I didn't check to see who speculated what the issue might be, but, they were spot on. The wood sammiched between the fiberglass is shot. Gonzo. It was crumbled. Pictures posted of what I have now. What is my next step? I have a feeling this is now going to be fairly involved. I don't really care for any comments saying the boat is shot, or I shouldn't do it, or any of that. I need solutions or how anyone may go about getting this fixed and strengthened. This is my boat and only option for boating this summer. Unfortunately, a new G series is not in the budget. Nor is a replacement late 80's Martinique B/R... My initial reaction is to: 1. Get the dremel out 2. Cut out a square (much larger than the rudder port square size), not through the bottom layer of glass though 3. Put in some marine grade wood in the cut out square 4. Epoxy/silicone the crap out of it 5. Drill the holes for the rudder port bolt holes/rudder shaft hole 6. Re-fiberglass the thing on the top layer 7. Reinstall rudder port and rudder while using enough A4200 Marine Adhesive. I am a little stressed about this now. Any and all help would be super appreciated. Thank you all in advance! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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SNobsessed ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I would change your plan to include precoating the plywood (doesn't need to be marine) with thinned epoxy. You can buy CPES or thin it yourself with Xylol (about 25% works good).
Sand down the area the plywood sits on. Skip the silicone seal altogether. Butter up the sealed ply & the cleaned up recess with epoxy (you can thicken it if you want, more stuff to buy), & assemble with some weights until epoxy cures. Then over coat with 3 or 4 layers of cloth or mat, each layer larger. You can do more than 1 layer at a time, If you precut & have it layed out handy, you could do all in 1 shot. Drill out the holes & then coat ID with epoxy. A good source for materials is Composites Plus. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21141 |
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Did the previous owner say that it “may need a new steering cable”? LMAO.
Most thorough stringer threads here include the replacement of hardware backers etc... check those for how-to’s. |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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I like this idea of doing that pre-coating to the fill-in piece. That sounds like it would work nicely. Also, thank you for the tip on staggering the top piece of the cake. Didn't think about that, but certainly a good plan. Thank you for the help and insight! |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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No mention of that. I am certain the seller would have been more than willing to disclose any knowledge of things in need of repair. Have continued to keep in contact with him and would definitely offer his knowledge. Is this one of those things that should be done while in there messing with all of this? I have done minimal reading on this process, but have seen it mentioned in other threads. Didn't think it to be an issue at the time. Might be more of one now. One step at a time, one breath at a time. |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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SNobsessed ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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You woukd know it if cable is bad. No big time savings doing it at same time, but if you have extra money, it will steer like butter with a new cable.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Lol. That makes me rest easy. Yes, no problems with steering last summer. I think I will just wait on that upgrade.
Thanks! |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Do you have any recommendations on which brand of CPES to buy? I was hoping to order it off of Amazon today. That would allow it to be shipped in time for the big Saturday boat work-day. I hoped onto Composites Plus and didn't have any immediate luck finding materials to buy from their website. When "buttering up the sealed ply," would I be using the 3M 4200 sealant/epoxy? Or some other type? Thanks for the help on this! We cut out the area of bad wood back to where it is better quality and not falling apart. I am anxious to get this back together to get started back on the other projects. I will try and post some pictures of the most recent progress this weekend. |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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Gary S ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I'm only aware of 2 companies who make a CPES product,Smiths and Git Rot. There may be others but those two are good.
You need to post pictures before you go any further,you will need to get all the wood out that supports that rudder port and replace it with new. |
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jamestown and Mas both have a low viscosity epoxy. Here's Jamestown Total Boat |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Thank you for the tip! I saw Smith's, but will check it against the "Git Rot." (Also just saw email notification of another response-- I will check out the other suggestions, too.)
I will get pictures out as well. I have all of the wood out that is around that rudder port area. Not sure what is worse at this point -- dealing with rust on cars or rotten boat wood, lol. |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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shierh ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: April-29-2015 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 605 |
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I used coosa board in place of the wood. ground area up to the stringers and tied it all in and filled any pocket that was aft of the rudder post so water would not sit there any longer. My layup was way over kill but at least it wont fail.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Do you happen to have any pictures from your repair? Interested in this idea. Thanks! |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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Morfoot ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: February-06-2004 Location: South Lanier Status: Offline Points: 5313 |
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I didn't use coosa but aircraft flooring panels in my rebuild on my mustang. Same principal needs to be followed using coosa, or fir or something other than plywood.
Foots Mustang |
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Too bad we all don't have access to "obtaining" the panels. ![]() |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Thank you for the note! I am having trouble viewing pictures from that thread... I will play with some things here in a bit to try and view them. But, I am liking this idea of the coosa/HDPE options more and more. |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I wouldn't recommend the HDPE. It will not bond. |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Anyone have a good source for coosa board? Maybe even a source that would sell a smaller cut piece? TYIA
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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oldskiboat ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: June-16-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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Hi there, I have a similar issue with my 75 Southwind 20. I removed the rudder and rudder port today and luck was on my side the wood is okay. What I saw was a bit of water around the base of the rudder port while the boat was on the trailer. What seems to have happened is that the bedding material failed. Can't complain about that after 45 years. I spoke to Correct Craft support and Steve told me they use Sikaflex-291 White Polyurethane Adhesive. Ordered that also through Amazon. I am also going to be injecting some get rot just to be sure.
Regards, Gary |
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shierh ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: April-29-2015 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 605 |
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were are you located, i can send you what you need.
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oldskiboat ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: June-16-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 92 |
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If you are answering my post, I have already ordered what I need. Thank you though.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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I am in Slippery Rock, PA if talking to me. Lol
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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I have read a lot of good things about Git Rot. Will be looking for some when I get my mess sorted a bit better. |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Okay. Finally got some pictures of what I have going on. I have my replacement piece of wood cut, I am getting some cleaner for the fiberglass, and want to stick this piece of wood to that fiberglass and finally glass over top of it. I was even thinking of re-enforcing this even more with some steel bracing and bolting that to the stringers. Is that overkill?
I am more than open to suggestions, ideas, concerns, anything to help! I have toyed with putting the 3M A4200 sealant between the bottom layer of fiberglass and the wood, but also thought about doing resin. Ideas there?? Thanks again for any and all help! --Note: Will be doing the 3M stuff for the brass rudder port plate and backing/bolts/etc. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Also worth noting -- the bottom glass is not cracked in the rear. It looks like it, but it is all good there. It looks like it could have been an uneven pour of resin/fiberglass on the mold or something like that. Should I level that up before continuing with repairs?
Thanks! |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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8122pbrainard ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Derrick,
No need to make the steel bracket to reinforce the area to the stringers. With glassing in the backing, it will be plenty strong. I mention glassing since I feel you should be using resin (epoxy preferred) and glass and no on the 4200. Keep the 4200 for bedding the actual port. Make sure the old glass is clean and you should grind it to the point were you see glass and not much old. resin. I would also suggest pre priming the ply with CPES or thinned epoxy resin. Then bed the ply in some thickened (cabosil or chopped glass fiber) resin. Over the top should be several layers of glass and resin. Each layer should be larger than the previous so the load is spread out. |
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outerbanked ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-27-2017 Location: seattle Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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https://www.westsystem.com/instruction-2/
Take a look at these guides. The boat construction book talks about layups, fillets, thickeners, and all sorts of info that will help you understand the product. Packing tape is another great tip as you can peel the tape right off after epoxy is hard. You may want to oversize and countersink both sides of your plywood’s holes then re-drill. This would completely seal your wood and is a trick described in the fasteners section. These methods apply to “fiberglassing” in general. |
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outerbanked ![]() Senior Member ![]() Joined: July-27-2017 Location: seattle Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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Read up on filler / thickeners.
Resin by itself is weak. It is a glue. The strength is increased by using fiberglass fabric of different weights, weaves, mat, carbon, etc Fillers such as colloidal silica, wood fiber, microballons, etc. Doubling or tripling up on surgical gloves is also helpful. You can peel off a layer and be back to a non-sticky hand. Apple vinegar is also a better smelling clean up tool for skin. Much nicer to your body than acetone. |
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beardo73 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March-23-2018 Location: Slippery Rock Status: Offline Points: 123 |
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Thank you all for the tips! Much appreciated. I have worked with fiberglass in the past, but only on cars. I have complete faith in the system, but there is a part in the back of my mind that says if it isn't watertight -- or strong enough... The boat will be at the bottom of the river
![]() Few questions, though. 1. Should I still coat the ply in CPES even though it is already treated? 2. When I mate the new ply to the bottom fiberglass, would Tiger Hair be an appropriate product? Plan was to put Tiger Hair down, place ply in, put weights on ply to get it down, let it cure. 3. How many coats of resin/fiberglass matting (pieces will be bigger each time) should go on top of the newly installed ply? Thank you all again for your contributions! Last night I got the bottom resin/fiberglass all scored up and ready. I used acetone to clean it, but will do that again before we start the fun stuff. Happy Friday! ![]() ![]() |
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1988 Correct Craft Martinique B/R, PCM 454, ~577 HRS.
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