1977 302 PCM Engine |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6157 |
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Ahh, I wonder if they ever started making the Mallory gears again. I bought all the available ones up for the dealership back when I got wind they were unavailable.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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I’d like to know whether the available 3d printing material(s) are suitable for the application... I have little doubt the gear could be reproduced reasonably accurately.
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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I know of a few local spots I could have it 3D printed, I just need to get my hands on a design. I don't have access to design software anymore. |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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Their fix is to send my current gear out to melonized. I am fine with that, after I confirm with a few metallurgists that it will work. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Yep, they’ve listed it forever. I remember hearing feedback 5+ years ago (maybe 10) that the rr gear wasn’t actually available.
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6157 |
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They still list a 302 and 351 Dizzy with a RR gear?
3d printing would be stellar. Anyone know anyone? |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Pretty sure that dui hasn’t had rr gears in many years.
3D printing technology there get? I’d be leaning on LSM pretty hard to find a workable solution. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6157 |
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DUI supplies the reverse Ford dizzy so they have access to the gear documents? Mallory is just brushing you off. |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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I like the Idea of one long gear and cutting off pieces to machine into gears. I am working on getting a second gernzonthat I can have one nitrided then send the other out to be reverse engineered.
I offered to buy the prints or cutting summaries from MSD, Mallory and pretty much anyone else that has made these gears. They claim they don’t have any of these records anymore. |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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8620 is a very good steel alloy. It can have a tough core and a hard outer surface. Core for strength and hard surface for wear. Anyway, if you could get a length of material cut (hobbed) with the correct tooth configuration then the remaining work (lathe) is pretty simple. I would suggest at least 12 inches of gear, then numerous gears can be machined from that one piece. Nitriding is a surface hardening that is only a couple thousands deep but very hard. That is at least one way to go. (I will probably get corrected here, I always do) |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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Thanks Ben, it’s reassuring to see the compatibility of distributor material and cam material. Hopefully I can have a cast iron gear melonized and be done with it. I would plan to inspect the gear periodically to ensure there are not any issues.
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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It’s partially my fault for not considering the fact that Ford RR gears are so hard to find. LSM gave me the name of a local company that they use for other melonized products. Unfortunately there wasn’t any discussion of distributor gear material before. Had I known they were not available, I would have just put a new flat tappet in.
I plan to check a few more sources for the melonized gear and a few more small gear shops over the next few days. Worst case, if I pay to have a bronze gear made, I will also get the cutting summary so I could get more cut in the future. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11118 |
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Just me thinking out loud here, but it seems that LSM should have been talking about cam gear compatibility with you before deciding to make your cam.
Maybe they did and you didn't realize that there was nothing out there it's pretty common knowledge at least here on CCF that what you need doesn't really exist as a mass produced product and they should know that too or at least ask what you have for a gear.. Can't they make a gear for you that's compatible with their cam or maybe do the coating of a cast iron RR gear that you send to them? Or tell you where to get it done to their standards. At least that way if there are problems it's their cam and gear. Otherwise if you have problems, you know what their answer will be with somebody else's gear being involved. I don't have a clue what a one off gear like that or even a small number of them would cost but you're a gear guy that could probably get some help through work and if you had orders for a few from some CCFers it could bring the price per gear down.. I was hoping your answer would be different, but had that feeling that this would be the situation. Duane in Indy may be able to be of some help here |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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Unfortunately it was a series of many phone calls. LSM recommended a composite or bronze gear for the roller cam, sounds easy enough, but bromze or composite reverse rotation distributor gears do not exist for the ford 302 or 351.
Even a Cast iron gear is nearly impossible to find. So after multiple calls with LSM and a few former coworkers, they recommended I have a cast iron gear melonite or nitride coated. This should allow it to work with the 8620 Roller Cam. Any thoughts on this? Anyone with a metallurgy background that would agree or disagree? If bronze is the only way, I can get a few gears made, but i’ll Pay for it. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11118 |
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Apparently this is a really long phone call |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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Thanks Ken, I’ll call LSM on Monday. There are some notes I’ll check on the cam card as well. I don’t remember seeing it, but it may be on there.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11118 |
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That should be real easy research Steve. Talk to LSM Engineering and ask them if your distributor gear is compatible with the gear on the new camshaft Stock distributor gear is cast iron Logically, I would have thought there would have been some mention of gear compatibility somewhere along the way when the camshaft was being ordered/made/sent to you. |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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Gary, I will research the distributor gear more. I need to confirm that before I do some damage. Thanks for the heads up.
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Gary, $247 for RR custom grind FLAT tappet from Comp Cams. Cam only
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I don't think that's bad either. I don't have it on me but I have a receipt for a flat tappet GT40 cam from Cam Research,I want to say around 300 not sure but I think it included lifters and broken in. I'm surprised about the gear- I thought you needed a different metallurgy with a roller cam ? Maybe because it's not a factory cam ? It will be interesting to see how it performs when your done,I'll bet you will get this guy alot of work
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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Cost was $550, I didn’t think it was too bad Considering the costs others said to expect. The original distributor gear should work fine for it.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Interesting development Steve. Ballpark price? Anything said about distributor gear needed?
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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It's been a while sine I updated this thread. I picked up the new Reverse Rotation Roller Cam from LSM Engineering this week. I can now continue with my rebuild, get the cam in and measure push rods.
I should get some good horsepower gains from the changes. Roller cam ground for slightly better low end torque and wider power band, I dint go too aggressive on the grind. Upgraded to GT40P Heads Roller Lifters Roller Rockers Block was line bored and honed Block bored .030 over Hypereutectic Pistons Original Dual Diaphragm mechanical fuel pump rebuilt by Then and Now New water pump Rebuilt Sherwood Water Pump Still looking intake manifolds |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21186 |
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LSM
Let us know the current details (availability/pricing/min buy/etc). Always good to stay current on these things. |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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We discussed it a few times, That was partially why he wanted the original cam so that he could verify the gear direction and to scan the profiles. He said he has done reverse rotation before primarily for racing boats with dual engines that have one standard and one reverse rotation.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Steve,
I'm getting a feeling he doesn't realize your cam is a RR. ?? |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11118 |
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That means you already have the 351/late 302 firing order, no need or reason to change the firing order |
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Mille1sj
Senior Member Joined: October-01-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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I will ask him for the specs when I hear from him next week. The tag on my engine says the firing order is 18456273.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11118 |
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A good starting point would be asking what your current firing order is.
By 77 marine PCM 302's for the most part had the 351 firing order already. The low performance 165 HP version had the old 302 order and the 185 and 215 HP versions had the 351 firing order. The change in cars came later. Since he's gonna scan it, if you were to post the specs here on CCF, it would help others and it would probably help him get business too especially if he can make a reasonably priced reverse rotation roller cam for you. If you do have the low performance 302, you can read about a variety of reasons for the firing order swap on the internet. Some "reasons" make a lot more sense than others but Ford changed it, so why not go with the new firing order? |
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