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Max RPM

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NautiqueJeff View Drop Down
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    Posted: October-27-2020 at 11:21pm
Here's a question I should know the answer to, but I don't.

What determines the max RPM for an engine?  Why does the standard 5.8 with a carb redline at 4,400, but the GT-40 redlines at 4,800?

The engine in my '99 Air Tique 176 revs to 4,750 at WOT (45 MPH by GPS).  I have run it up there a grand total of one time, just to see what it would do.  

If I swap the heads and cam and add an intake, like I am planning to do this winter, can I safely run 4,800 RPMs without fear of hurting anything?  I'm currently running a 422.  I wonder what prop I'll need with the extra power.
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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KENO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 7:29am
It sounds to me like you really do know the answer but you don't know that you know the answer Wink

Somebody could probably write a book about that, but basically what you mentioned about heads, cam and intake and fuel system along with the exhaust system affect the engines ability to breathe.

There's also the ability of the mechanical parts of the engine to survive for long periods of time at sustained high RPM. (valve train, quality of the rotating parts, adequate cooling etc)

When Ford built the engine, they had a trusty ole' dyno to tell them where the power peaked, most of us don't. Some have a desktop dyno program that gives a good idea of what to expect with changes

What you're thinking of doing would be no problem. 

Safely probably depends how long you want to keep it at 4800 RPM

You notice that PCM gave max RPM numbers and max continuous RPM numbers over the years.

An example would be 4400 RPM max and 3600 rpm continuous on the base 351 and 4800 and 4000 to 4200  for the gt40. I guess they couldn't make up their mind on the continuous number for the gt40.

Now all you have to do is define "continuous".

You'll find people running a 351 with the changes you've mentioned at 5000 plus RPM with no issues for some period of time that they're comfortable with. (and everybody's comfort level definitely isn't the same)

Now 12 different people may come along to tell you about their engine and what it runs at Wink

Hanging on to this one for the kids and you too ?
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NautiqueJeff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 10:32am
Yes, this one will be used by my 14-year-old next summer.  It needs new heads anyway because one is leaking a bit of water to the outside (none getting in the oil or anything).

We don't run it super fast.  It'll hit almost 4,800 at WOT now with the original parts.  I'm just wondering why PCM says that the max RPM is 4,400 for the current setup, but specs basically the same engine to have a max of 4,800 when in GT-40 configuration.  My current engine can hit the max for the GT-40.  Why is the GT-40 "allowed" by PCM to hit that RPM, but the non-GT-40 should stay under the 4,400 redline?  Are the GT-40 heads built to withstand the extra 400 RPM and the regular heads are not?  Maybe the springs are different or something?

Here's Andrew trying out the 176.  He's happy to get to use it himself next summer!


Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 10:42am
No. The std engine gets dull above 4400 because its beyond its peak torque, hence the recommended max operating rpm.
You are getting away with it because your boat is light and small.  A heavier boat,  or more drag, or a hull that likes to porpoise,  it would be more apparent to you.
Its not a rpm where things begin to fly apart.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 11:55am
Dang Jeff, the 176 is a racecar to start with.  Young Andrew may want a Python in that bad-boy so he can really get after it!

KENO is spot on (he usually is)  The rotating / moving parts in the 5.8 SBF engine are reasonably similar, whether carbureted or EFI.  Since the non-GT40 heads and carburetor fuel delivery system won't breath like a true GT40 engine, your peak HP and torque will be at the lower RPMs that PCM recommends -- so there really is no reason to wind the engine up.  Obviously the higher the RPMs, the faster the engine will wear out, so there really should be a compelling reason to run at higher RPMs.  One could argue that your prop should be the deciding factor in WOT engine RPMs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 12:29pm
You're right, it is a quick little boat!  I wouldn't be messing with it other than the fact that one of the heads is leaking water.  If I have to replace them anyway, I might as well make it an even faster race car, right?  I wonder if I can see 50 MPH with GT-40P heads, a cam, an intake and the right prop.
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 2:23pm
GT40P heads, Edelbrock RPM intake, QuickFuel carb, DUI dizzy, 1.7 roller rockers and you would be 300+ ponies. Ski Demon...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 4:11pm
That sounds kinda fun.
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Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-28-2020 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by NautiqueJeff NautiqueJeff wrote:

That sounds kinda fun.
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Jeff,
I think your 14 year old will agree! Big smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-29-2020 at 8:11am
Your LH engine wants a roller cam too
the block is likely roller-ready
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-02-2020 at 9:55am
I guess I'll toss in a few comments.  First, I wouldn't worry a bit running WOT at 4,750 for a rip that lasts 20 seconds.  I think those of us that drop the hammer and run WOT when water conditions allow really only do so for 10 or 20 seconds, maybe a minute once in a while.  I do run 4,000 or a bit more for longer periods of time, granted it's a GT-40.

I like what you are proposing, you'll have GT-40 level HP when done, and should get close to 50 I would think.

I'm not sure I agree with a few comments above that say that manufacturer's max rpm number is decided because of when the engine runs out of the power band.  I think they determine the number based on rotating parts surviving for some period of time, not sure what they consider reasonable, could be 1 minute, could be 10 minutes, no idea.  But I do think that engine breathing ability, oiling system, type of moving parts determine their max rpm ratings.
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