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"Blown" Ford 351 |
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KENO 
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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 Posted: April-07-2021 at 7:31am |
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Bill
The new starter should fit and work, it just has a different place to bolt the battery cable to it. PCM and Commander used the same long nosed Ford starter with the same 157 tooth flywheel. Your old starter,if it was the short nosed version shouldn't have engaged the teeth on the flywheel at all due to the length difference so your new and old may have the same length nose or snout when you compare them.
Now as far as your personal lifelong "snout" issues............I think there are websites and doctors that maybe can help you out in that category  |
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 1:43pm |
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That's great news Keno! I didn't know the doctors had anything for that! As far as the less crucial problem I'm having goes; the description of the new starter says the snout protrudes 2 3/8 inches into the bell housing chamber. I just measured with a tape and that's correct. The one I just took off measured 2 inches protrusion. I'm hoping the extra 3/8 of an inch engages the teeth on the flywheel completely and passes over the ground up teeth enough to not get stuck there. I don't think an extra 3/8 of an inch is going to help me in the other department. What I'm concerned about is the circumference of the starter body itself. It seems to be much bigger than the one I just took off. Saturday morning will tell.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: April-07-2021 at 5:03pm |
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Shorty
It's not as simple as measuring the snout on your previous starter which was one of the newer smaller, more powerful .PMGR starters and comparing the length to the snout on the older style big starter Your snout on the SFD 0071 which is what you put on earlier in the thread is about 2 inches and it works fine to start your engine. The snout on the starter you just got is about 2 3/8 inches and it works just fine too. You have to have them side by side and look at the gear positions and mounting surfaces to see that they both work the same as far as engaging the teeth on the flywheel.. I could get some pictures later So............it's not the length or the size that matters as long as it works for you You might have had an issue with the gear binding on the shaft or the solenoid not functioning to make the linkage arm push the gear into engagement.
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William777
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Joined: October-21-2017 Location: Northern CA Status: Offline Points: 149 |
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Posted: April-19-2021 at 8:46pm |
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OK, the new starter was longer in the snout and the gear was starting in a position closer to the flywheel. It worked great.
The timing was not easy to set. I was paranoid about putting the boat in drive while tied to the dock but I had to do that in the end in order to get the timing set properly. I did that and it was amazing how nicely the timing dialed in with that procedure. I didn't pull the dock away nor did the boat ride up on the dock, which were the things I was envisioning happening. So I had the boat on the water last Sunday for 4 hours and all was well. Then yesterday I was going to pick some friends up from their dock and 30 yards from the dock the transmission flopped. It started slipping like a bad clutch on a manual auto transmission, then it gave out all together and das boat stopped moving. I detached the cable and tried to shift into gear at the transmission and still no go. All I had was a little reverse, so I reversed into the dock. Somewhat embarrassing, considering I didn't know some of the people I was supposed to be giving this magical boat ride to. It was better than being stranded on the water, though. So, now I get to become a Borg Warner expert. What glee.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Joined: June-14-2014 Location: Cape Town Status: Online Points: 334 |
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Posted: April-21-2021 at 9:43am |
Glad another CCF'er is joining me on this journey of discovery I'm currently on... |
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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SNobsessed
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Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Posted: April-21-2021 at 5:36pm |
Sorry to hear of your tranny issue. I am confused by the need to have the boat in gear to set timing. Does it have an automotive distributor with vacuum advance?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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MourningWood
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Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 917 |
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Posted: April-22-2021 at 11:29am |
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Agree.
Setting the idle speed in gear is one thing...but timing does not need to be in gear at all. |
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1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"
'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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William777
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Posted: April-22-2021 at 11:53am |
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Well dang, clueless in Clearlake again I guess. I thought I read that somewhere. Anyway when I did it it ran better and finally would idle below 1000. I'll check it all again soon.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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SNobsessed
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Posted: April-22-2021 at 5:39pm |
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Yeah it needs to be about 600 to set timing. Sounds like you might have a vacuum leak if you can't get it to idle down.
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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William777
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:40am |
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After I did the Clearlake method of timing setting, it idles fine now around the 600 RPM mark. No clue. As far as the transmission goes...I tore it all down and then read ahead on this great post I found into the reassembly steps to familiarize myself with the procedure before I started myself. On the reverse clutch plate assembly it says assemble bronze then steel then bronze plates in order. My transmission only had one bronze plate in it. No other bronze and no steel. The forward clutch plates look practically new but I'll replace them anyway. Could the gap those missing plates in the reverse assembly have caused my issues? I'm going to stick the drive gear back in the dampener plate on the flywheel and see if I can turn it to check if the dampener is still intact internally. It looks fine from the outside. Grazzi for any input.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 6:16am |
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The great post was probably the "Wouter" thread on the Mastercraft forum.(He did miss/skip a few things in the forward piston and cylinder area though...he didn't disassemble them and replace seals)
If so, his transmission was a later version and used multiple reverse plates. Yours came with one just like you found (and forward and reverse both worked for the last 40 something years) So...........it had nothing to do with your forward slippage Here's a link to a manual from the time period yours was built, showing one reverse plate page 65 of the manual talks about clutch plate combinations. Yours would be combination #1 in the chart, later versions were combination #10 which his transmission had. You could assemble yours with the #10 pieces and it would work They're thinner plates that when installed take up the same amount of space in the cavity as your older thick one. If reverse was slipping too, but still got you back to the ramp, you probably have a pressure problem with the pump or pressure regulator. If the damper plate was bad and slipping, you probably would have heard some "god awful grinding noises" as the springs in the damper were self destructing
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William777
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 11:36am |
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Keno, that's exactly the post I was looking at. Also, thanks you for the heads up on the reverse plates. I'm currently trying to figure out how to remove the pressure regulator. Don't suppose I can test these components without having to reassemble the tranny?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:37pm |
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I removed the pressure regulator and I don't know how to diagnose it. "Stuck" open would refer to some internal component of the regulator or its position in the barrel chamber it fits in. I kinda see how it works, when the shifter is moved back and forth it spins the regulator inside the barrel changing the fluid path between forward and reverse? It moves freely in the barrel. There is some kind of plunger thing inside held tight with a spring. The spring is tight. I used a bottle jack braced and compressed the spring and it moves, although this is a strong spring. Can someone explain what stuck open and stuck closed means? Thank you.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 1:39pm |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: April-24-2021 at 7:59pm |
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The thing is a combination pressure regulator and spool valve .
The rotation of the valve lines up with ports to send oil to the forward or the reverse clutches. The big honkim' heavy spring and piston/plunger is the pressure regulator for maintaining proper operating pressure in the transmission. Any excess pressure is bled off to the sump through the oil cooler. You can probably tell that for one, you don't want to try taking it apart without the proper tools and since you compressed the spring and it sprung back, it's not stuck open or closed. Open would cause low system pressures and closed would cause high pressure with no flow through the cooler. Other things like the clutch plates or the pump are a lot more likely to be your problem than a malfunctioning regulator. They're pretty bullet proof.
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:46pm |
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Hello from drive plate hell. The one I took off the boat is shot I believe. The sprocket in the middle is loose and wiggly. I'm gambling that it is the cause of the issues I'm having. There were some pops and slips before the drive went out completely, a sound this thing could make if it was failing. Everything inside the transmission looked new except for some wear on the reverse clutch plate. So, I'm trying to replace the drive plate. I apparently bought the wrong one. I tried to research this all myself but I'm afraid of buying another wrong one. I found part R14001 for $218 (it looks more like the original plate off the boat) on one site that I have in my shopping cart (Nautique Parts Site). The one I bought is on the left in the following picture.(bought from ebasicmarine) It's a DA 106. The DA 106A was not available and I was told the 106 could be cut down to clear the starter but the bolt holes don't line up in any way with the flywheel. The drive plate on the right in the pic is the original. My engine is a Commander with the Borg Warner 71C. Guidance please?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:48pm |
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:55pm |
 This is the drive plate in the shopping cart on the Nautique site. I'm worried because it's called "PCM" R140001. It states on the site that it's intended for the Borg Warner transmission that I have. But, PCM is not the marinizer I have correct? Mine is Commander. Does this matter in the case of this drive plate?
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 1:57pm |
Keep the DA-106 and empty your shopping cart right now You're only in purgatoryIf you slide and wiggle the plate around enough, you'll find that 3 holes in the plate will line up with 3 holes in the flywheel and you install it with only 3 bolts. It works fine with just 3. You'll have to trim it to fit. Find the right fit first before trimming so that you don't trim it wrong and cut through the wrong holes or anything like that. Use a picture of the pre trimmed106A as a guide Commander or PCM doesn't matter. |
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 2:16pm |
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Here's a picture Follow the "not very artistic" purple lines to the 3 right holes for mounting the plate to your Ford flywheel  |
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William777
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 2:23pm |
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OK, I'll wiggle it some more, that sometimes helps with my other problem. I can't believe you have a drawing of that flywheel with the holes marked Keno! That's impressive. Ok, we'll see this Saturday. Thank you!
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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KENO
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 2:26pm |
I didn't until about 10 minutes ago Now about that other problem,,,,,,,,,,,um, well nevermind
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swilliams
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 5:41pm |
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Nice save Ken!
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1976 Martinique,350 Omc. 1975 Glastron/Carlson CV16,115 Merc.
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Duane in Indy
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Posted: May-04-2021 at 9:19pm |
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As always Ken, Nice work. Now go and reinstall your damper plate. My manual has drawings to make the special tools needed to do rebuild. Pres/Rel valve is tricky and requires special tool to disassemble safely.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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William777
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 5:15pm |
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Gobsmacked here. The pressure plate sure did bolt up just as Ken said it would, thank you very much! Gaining access to a press this week to put the snap rings back inside the transmission. Hopefully putting it all back together this weekend and doing some boating. Thank you all.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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8122pbrainard
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Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 5:25pm |
The damper plate?
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tryathlete
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Joined: April-19-2013 Location: Lake Villa, IL Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 5:28pm |
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Lots of pressure from the family to get that plate on. They’re starving for a boat ride.
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William777
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 6:20pm |
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Damper plate, drive plate, yup thanks, not a pressure plate. Sorry, dangling from the end of my rope here.
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1978 Martinique Ford 351 Windsor
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tryathlete
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 6:32pm |
No matter what you’re getting a lot of experience fixing this on your own. Congrats are soon to come. |
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: May-10-2021 at 8:50pm |
William, OK, I'm having a hard time figuring out why the damper plate doesn't fit. As Ken did mention there are only 3 holes to mount it rather than the 6 the original had. Do 3 holes line up? They should as Ken pictured: |
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William777 wrote: