Acceleration issues. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3750 |
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That would do it for sure! A shop was paid to do this work? I know some shops are very good and do magic repairs but the number of hacks out there taking money amazes me.
When you go to fix your fire order on the plug wires remember this is a FORD, Ford engines are 1234 on bank one and 567 and 8 on bank 2. If you look straight down on your engine above your distributor and engine pulleys you will see one cylinder head is about 1” forward of the other at the front of the engine. This forward head is always bank 1 where your #1 cylinder is on a V8 engine to get started.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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I imagine we should let him verify what he has for a firing order before getting too excited, but if 3 and 5 are reversed, they'd both be firing on the exhaust stroke since they're opposite from each other in the firing order.
Just swap the wires around, they'll fire when they're supposed to, and see what happens. The picture from real early in the thread, before the distributor issue seems right on the wire arrangement Edit..............verify that what you have labeled as #1 really goes to #1spark plug before changing anything around, a little voice in my head says that wire might go to #2 spark plug and the wiring is right Or in other words that paper should say #2 not #1 |
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I was able verify some things this am. Just for clarification, the previous photo with the piece of paper with the marking #1 on the wire was where #1 used to be before going to the last shop. That is in fact where the #2 wire is and should be located now as KENO stated. See the below photos. Ok, when I removed the plugs I marked every wire with the correct cylinder location (based on the photo provided earlier in confirming the firing order). So, I went back out and turned the motor to TDC with the dampener at TDC as well as the rotor pointing to #1 wire in photo below. I then marked all of the wires on the distributor starting with #1 and working my way around CCW. Then checked that the markings at the distributor matched the markings at the plug end. 1 to1, 8 to 8 and so on. They all matched. I have looked at these wires so many times in dealing with this boat that I could be going cross-eyed though. If anyone sees anything in the photo that does not appear correct please let me know. Thanks everyone. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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It looks A OK to me
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I was really hoping the mushrooms on KENO's pizza were going provide to the visionary answers I have been looking for on this boat.
Thank you for confirming everything looks OK at this point, I really appreciate it. I am going to start putting things back together this week and inspecting things well as I do it. Hopefully I will get it fired up on the trailer by this weekend with some news to report. I found the DUI instructions with the troubleshooting section for some light reading as well just in case I need to go down that road at some point (hopefully not). Thanks.
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3750 |
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As others stated compression does not seem to be your issue. I ran my 78 Nautique for a summer with a burned valve, it was a little weak but still ran and sounded pretty good. We even barefoot behind it while it was running with the burned valve. So it had plenty of power. You have something else messed up. I am curious how it runs just like it sits now that you are sure you have a working distributor and timing is close.
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I may finally be on to breaking this boat's efforts to fight against me. I stumbled onto something today that produced very positive results. I'm not yet claiming problem solved, but we have to be extremely close.
When it returned from the last shop after they put the distributor gear back on, it would reportedly start, idle and then die off idle. They also reported it only had 13psi vacuum. I worked my way through the "slipped timing tooth theory" (thanks to you all) and finally put everything back together. I finally started it yesterday and idled but it didn't sound great. Off idle it stumbled hard and would die. When it would run it would idle low. I confirmed the timing was holding a really steady 10*. I stopped for the day. In getting ready to post those findings, I went back through to see what other suggestions I needed to report back as well. So, I decided to triple check the cap again knowing the rotor hit something when it died on the lake and the cap looked perfect and I put the cap back on. The other was to check there was 12V at the distributor. It indicated 11.8 but the battery is likely low from all the start attempts at the shop. I then double checked the connection/clips to the BAT and TACH terminals on the distributor by just making sure they were clipped in. There was really no reason to start the boat again and see if I could slowly get it off idle but I thought let's give one more try to confirm and it FIRED RIGHT UP AND SOUNDED GREAT!! Great throttle response and holds higher RPM's no problem. After turning it off and staring at it in shock for a bit, I tried a re-start and it started instantly (like touch the key start) it has never done that before. Did it twice to confirm. I also checked the vacuum which is back to a steady 15psi. The only thing that changed between yesterday and today was I pulled and checked the cap, confirmed 12V to distributor and double checked the connection/clips to the BAT and TACH terminals. The answer must lie here, my guess is a bad/loose connection or ground etc. I left well enough alone at this point. I need to confirm all of those connections since it was the first shop that installed the new distributor. So any recommendations on the best way to do that would be appreciated. I assume I can just remove the clips from the distributor and inspect them but I'm not touching anything right now as I want to enjoy a few days of victory with this boat before digging in for a closer look. Thanks again everyone! |
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
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If I remember correctly those connectors should just be push on spades. You can check connector retention just by pulling on them slightly. If they pull off easily then just take a pair of needle nose pliers and crimp them a little and try again. It should take some effort to pull them off the distributor.
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92 SN - Owned since 93
99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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If they are spade connectors, they are not as tight as they should be for sure, as there was a lot of movement in them. They seemed loose when I checked them and pushed them together, but I was only checking to make sure outer plastic retention clips (if that's the right term) were connected. Thanks! |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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Here are a couple pictures of the plugs on your distributor. The first one with 3 contacts is power to the ignition module under the cap and the coil on top of the cap. The second one is the plug for power to the distributor and the tach connection. Like you said, you have a clip just like the second one connecting your power (you can see it in the first picture you posted in this thread) It looks like you have 2 individual plugs instead of one with 2 connectors but they accomplish the same thing. Moving the cap around (like taking it off) can disturb that 3 connector plug. Some people unplug it and others just pull the cap and never pay any attention to that connector to verify that it's plugged in tightly and clipped. I'd be checking the condition of all those terminals since a bad connection at any of them is never a good thing You could check the connections to the ignition module while the cap is off too If the 2 connector power plug is bad/questionable a replacement pigtail with that plug is cheap |
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Thank you fellas!
The first photo that KENO posted (the one with 3 contacts) is the one that is loose. It easily slides up and down and is only being held on by a very small amount of friction and if not for the plastic retention clips would likely slide off. Is there a way to carefully expand the contacts to snug up the fit or is a replacement connector the only option? Thanks for the photos as well KENO, extremely helpful.
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desertskier
Platinum Member Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
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Sometimes you can expand the pin without de-pinning the connector. Otherwise you need to remove the pin from the back of the connector then expand it and then push it back into the same hole until it clicks in. You can usually look into the connector to see how it clicks in. Then use something small and pointy to release the pin as you pull slightly on the wire. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing how to de-pin a connector.
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92 SN - Owned since 93
99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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Or if you screw up the connector plug or a terminal like I usually do, or just want a new one, you can get a whole new "HEI wiring harness and capacitor kit".
Click on the link below for lots of choices It doesn't have to come from DUI either It's an easy swap |
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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After inspecting the three pins in the connector, the pin attached to the red wire was loose in the connector. The tab on the back of the pin was bent pointing up (not down as it should be) allowing the pin to slide in the connector. So when you would slide the connector together, the red wire would push back/out some. I removed the pin to the red wire from the connector, bent the tab back so it would catch correctly in the connector and re-connected everything.
Thinking the problem was now fixed, I started the boat and.......NOPE. It is now back to the it starts, idles poorly and dies off idle. Uhhhhhh..... Since these connections are the only thing I have touched since in ran amazing last night, the gremlin must be in this area somewhere. I double checked all the connections again and no luck. I'll spend some more time on it later and keep you all posted. Thanks again.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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Well........I hate to tell you to spend some more money but if you have this mystery issue where it one time might start and idle good, run good and the next time it doesn't, the ignition module comes to mind.
Ignition modules fail however they feel like failing
You can get a real cheapie for "troubleshooting" purposes. (That's just code for buying a cheap module) or you can spend a fair amount more. Any 4 pin module for this style HEI distributor will work. Here are some choices in the link If nothing else, you'll have a spare module
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uncle-buck
Senior Member Joined: June-14-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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Looks like the Delphi DS10071 module has received good reviews and it's only $30. I may buy one as a spare. Thanks for posting that link.
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1990 Ski Nautique (original owner)
PCM 351W with D.U.I. |
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Well, I went back and double checked all the connections again. I also moved some of the wires side to side with the engine running looking for a possible short and no luck. The engine will not return to where it ran great for that short period. It remains with the rough low idle and dies off idle. So the ignition module is the likely suspect as KENO suggested. Thank you KENO for the links as well.
Since I have had a number of issues associated with this distributor, and with it still being under warranty, I decided to contact the manufacturer and see if they have had any similar issues. I didn't want to start replacing more parts that would perhaps void the warranty. They advised that I am the only one they are aware of who has reported these issues, meaning the roll pin coming out and the gear coming off, the rotor damage and now possibly a bad ignition module. I want to make SURE that I convey how receptive they were to hearing what occurred and quickly offered on their own to have the distributor returned and inspected by one of their techs. They advised that they would repair/replace the distributor if needed and make it right. Outstanding customer service in my opinion. As much as I want to get a new ignition module and put it in and hopefully hear it run great again, I can't pass up their offer to have it inspected by one of their techs and go from there. I hope you all agree. There were some earlier comments about using a hardened roll pin for the distributor gear so I asked them about it. They confirmed that they use hardened roll pins in the distributor gear. I just wanted to pass that information along to everyone. It may be a few weeks before I have any updates but I will let you know what they find. Thanks again everyone.
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Hey all,
It has been a bit but I have a quick update. Not what I was hoping for but here is the latest. I sent the distributor back to the manufacturer and they inspected it. They replaced the rotor that I had replaced with a stock rotor and a new cap and tested it with no issues. I advised that we thought the ignition module may have been going bad based on my prior post. They replaced the ignition module and wiring harness as well. They advised they gave it a lengthy test with no issues and sent it back. The people at DUI were great to deal with in my opinion. I got it put back in and no start. Uhhhhhhh. I had marked all the wires and took photos of everything in removing it and put everything back exactly the same (so I think). The timing could be off a few degrees of but it can't be by much. Engine was at TDC with rotor pointing to #1. Triple checked firing order from #1. The distributor is fully seated. BAT and TACH connections are good. Pumped the throttle a few times and it is getting fuel. It would only stumble a few times (like a cough) but not really like it was really firing if that makes any sense. I decided give the starter and myself a break for a bit. I'm now confident the distributor is good so it is likely the mechanic (me) at this point. I will go back through the basics again this weekend and let you know what I do or don't find. A bit frustrating but I'm not giving up now. Thanks again for all the help. I know I have mentioned the "look" from the GF a few times so this is what I'm talking about. No doubt there is another one of these looks right around the corner when I tell her I am back to it not starting... |
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I finally have some good news to report!!!
After taking a break, I went out and tried starting again with no luck. I then adjusted the timing by rotating the distributor clockwise a bit (which I believe is advancing it if I'm correct) and it fired right up! I put the timing light on it and set it at 10* BTDC and it sounded great. I was able to give it throttle off idle and it responded great as well. I am a bit shocked and not sure I quite trust it yet, but only time will tell with more testing. Thanks everyone for hanging in there with me and helping me along the way. We are at least back to a boat that starts, idles and responds great off idle. I am not declaring victory yet but things are looking much better for sure.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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Clockwise on your engine advances the timing. By the way, if you rotate the distributor 5 degrees, the crankshaft timing changes by 10 degrees Always a factor of 2 on the adjustment.
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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Congrats, fingers crossed ...
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MourningWood
Gold Member Joined: June-13-2014 Location: NorCal Status: Offline Points: 917 |
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Great news! I think you may now realize that where the rotor points is not necessarily an indication of correct timing. Use the marks on the dampener-that's what they're there for. Christmas came a little early...
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1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun"
'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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Just kinda wondering................any victory declaration yet or does that wait till warmer weather?
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Hey KENO,
I haven't had it back out on the water yet. You are spot on about the warmer weather, not that it really gets that cold out my way. I will absolutely report how it runs when I do and hopefully with some good news.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11127 |
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Sounds like a plan
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I apologize for the long delay in finally reporting back. I was finally able to get a test run under load accomplished after all of the last round of repairs. I thank you all again for all your help along the way with this boat. I have some good news to report with only one major lingering issue remaining.
Just as a quick re-cap since it has been awhile. Last time at the lake we heard a pop/clank under load and it died. Found the distributor gear had sheared off. Got that repaired and went a down the "timing chain jumped a tooth" trail briefly from the last mechanic before you all quickly and correctly stopped me from chasing that rabbit. Sent the distributor back to DUI for a full check up. They replaced a few items and tested it and said it was good to go. Got it re-installed and was finally having success again on the trailer. I had been running it about monthly on the trailer just to make sure all was good and no real issues. Of course the day before heading to the lake it decides not to start. A quick check and no fuel from the accelerator pump nozzle (I think that's what its called), gave it a quick clean and it was working fine again. The cold start is tough for this boat so far. It stumbles through with throttle until warmed up then idles fine with great throttle response. So...at the lake yesterday, cold start was a bit rough but stumbled through for a few minutes then smoothed right out. Idled great. Smooth into gear and out past the no wake zone. Throttled up smooth and got up to about 2700 rpm and like before it would hold about 2700 rpm. As before, when I tried to give it more throttle beyond that it doesn't speed up and it doesn't slow down. It doesn't really spit or sputter and it doesn't lose RPMs. For me this was a great success knowing how many issues we have tackled with this boat and I successfully made it back to the dock in a respectable manner under my own power this time. One item to update. Consistently at the cold start, there is a whining/sucking sound that lasts 15-20 seconds at the rear of the engine right where the in-line strainer is located. I always assumed (I know that's not a good thing to do) it was the strainer and or inlet water line connection air leak while priming. Then it goes away and no issues on re-starts. I know I checked for vacuum leaks all around the manifold at the rear of the engine so I need to confirm and fix this issue. Would a manifold leak act or sound this same way? I plan to adjust the choke settings and see if I can achieve a better cold start. I am open to any suggestions on tackling this last hurdle of getting it over 2700 rpms and experiencing this boats full potential. Thanks again for all the help. |
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3750 |
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Congratulations on your progress. Sounds like the strainer seal is leaking and sucking air. Does your temperature vary while driving and idling? Maybe start it next time with the engine cover up and find out exactly where your noise is coming from. It might quiet down once water fills the strainer after start up?
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AZ86SKI
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2022 Location: Phoenix, AZ Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Thank you MrMcD. I went back out after posting and gave it a cold start again. The noise sounds like it is coming from the strainer seal. It's tight but the seal likely needs to be replaced. I will get that done. As soon as the strainer primed the noise went away.
I also adjusted choke to open sooner for the cold start. Gave it one pump of the throttle and it fired up and idled much better after start up. I will consider that problem solved for now. So for now just the failure to get over 2700 rpms remains... |
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63 Skier
Grand Poobah Joined: October-06-2006 Location: Concord, NH Status: Offline Points: 4269 |
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Good adjustment on the choke, if I understand the change you made. Truth is you can start an engine without a choke, use the accelerator pumps by pumping the throttle to keep it going in the first 15-20 seconds, so if anything I think you were experiencing too much choke for too long. Not sure of that, just guessing. But also a minor problem since it smooths out and runs fine after. On the 2700 rpm wall that you hit. If you hadn't had the distributor worked on and checked out I'd be suggesting that you need to check total timing, sorry can't remember if you already did so. Did you ever try a new ignition module? If fuel related I'd expect it to bog and surge when you hit the wall, the fact that it runs smoothly tends to make me think fuel is OK.
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'63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique
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MrMcD
Grand Poobah Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3750 |
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Any chance your tach is not accurate? I had one go out and it read pretty close to 1/2 actual RPM till it was changed out. Maybe take a GPS with you on the next drive and see how fast it is actually going at 2700 RPM. Most of these boats would be really close to 27 mph at 2700 RPM.
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