Boat Dr. shell oil question |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Does anyone know if the ZDDP additive added in todays non zinc oils equals the protection of the old oils with the zinc? Is the ZDDP additive the real thing? If the EPA has forced it's removal, can they sell it or is it different? I'm just thinking along the same lines as lead substitute. I'm one who doesn't believe in the lead substitute for gas since there isn't a true substitute for lead. Seems there may be some snake oil mixed in with the additive!
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I hope I didn't mislead anyone into thinking I am an oil expert. Certainly didn't mean to disrespect any of the CC experts out there. There is a ton of info on the net & I encourage everyone to check it out make up their own mind. I do recommend an oil analysis as that gives you insight into the wear taking place inside your engine. I'm not sure what they cost - haven't got that far yet.
I have a friend who has an '82 SN with 2500 hours, has only done scheduled maintenance & he said he has used quaker state 10W30 the whole time. Maybe some of this has to do with how hard you run your boat. Chris |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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I guess that goes to show you that nothing takes the place of regular maintenance. I havent heard good things about Quaker State oil. It should be noted that the elimination of the zinc happened recently (within the last 5 years, I would guess). The latest oils to lose it are the diesel oils (within the last year or so), which most boat engines used. Its not a valid comparison to cite a case of a reliable engine running "non-zinc" oils if your reference point is more than a few years old, as all oils used to have it not very long ago. Pete, I havent read a ton on oil additives that contain ZDDP- but I can tell you that theres no clear consensus. Some say the additives do more harm than good, some say they dont have enough ZDDP to be worthwhile. I found it easier simply to switch to a quality oil with the right ingredients. |
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east tx skier
Senior Member Joined: August-22-2006 Location: Tyler, TX Status: Offline Points: 248 |
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Thanks for the replies. I suppose, at least, it's okay until spring. At that point, I might feel more inspired to change the oil again.
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Guests
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trb- .. an additive package contains zinc and phosphourus..rotella t has a very high levels of zinc..the average levels in rotella t has 1315 ppm..phosphurus is 1132 ppm..much higher than many high end oils..almost identical to amsoil..let me guess you know it all though...it rivals redline which sells for 12/quart..so whats wrong with rotella??..thousnad of superbike racers and riders run it our engines which are a lot more tempremental than a standard 351 etc..its used in trucks semis and high high end machinery..but yet you seem to believe its not good enough for your boat?..keep paying more, its your money not mine
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Chris, not to call you out but .....
"My friend has a SN with 2500 hrs. on Quaker State" is a crock of Sh*t. You ask for advice and what oils we use and all the info that shows up from our research. Most of us have run these oils for a while. Long before you came to this site ,If i was you I would run the the same stuff your buddy runs. Save the money for the oil analysis,cause there is little or no wear inside that engine....Go Quaker State, NOT |
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id keep rollin with the rotella t..better than running any shelf oil you will find..only the high end stuff is equal or better..amsoil redline royal purple etc
only a handful of companies produce their own base stock..spending more money on a cetain type of oil doesnt mean its better.car oils have less zinc due to them damaging the catalitic converter.. the zinc is for metal to metal contact in which hopefully your oil is preventing this, if not the zinc reacts and acts to prevent scuffing and wear.the higher the amount of zinc doesnt give you more protection just longer if your motor expierences scuffing and wear for a longer time..too much zinc is bad cause it cna lead to deposits and plug fouling.. anyways i can ramble on ...my 2 cents |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Boat Dr - Again I mis-communicated. I was just trying to say that there is no 1 answer to this oil question.
This guy does have 2500 hours on his boat using junk oil (I would not use it either). Maybe he is just lucky. I very much agree that we need Zddp in our oil. Now to find the right one. BTW, I was visiting the dark side (aka Planet Nautique) & they have an identical discussion going on! Chris PS I got your packing nut tools, can't wait to use them next spring. |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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rotella t does have the additive package zddp...
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Do you know how to read? The whole point of this conversation is that the ZDDP has been all but eliminated in the Rotella blends (15w40, for example). This has occurred within the last year, in response to the new diesel motors and their particulate filters, as i understand. Doc spoke to a chemical engineer from Shell, and she told him that the only oils that they sell that still contain the zinc are the 30w and 40w. I used to run the Rotella 15w40 until Doc alerted me to the change in formulation. It was a great oil for us, but I wont run it anymore. The Valvoline VR1 is less than $3/qt, so Im not paying much more to put the right oil in my engine. It has ZDDP right on the bottle, and does not meet the most recent API specs (CJ-4) which has required the elimination of the zinc. Rotella does meet this spec. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7953 |
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I understand it on the old engines, but how does this play out on a modern vortec chevy engine with a roller cam? The diesel 15w40 oils are good for those aren't they?
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Yup, the zinc additive package really a non-issue on any modern roller motor. Just follow the engine manufacturer's recommended weight (15w40 seems to be pretty common for marine motors) and use a quality oil (Valvoline, Rotella, Castrol, Mobil1, etc) and youre fine. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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the biggest thing with the oil conversation is make sure you check it and change it at its scheduled intervals, oil is a lubricant and provides a thin barrier so the wearables do not actually touch, such as rings, lifters and so on
the only engines i ever see that fail are the ones with the lack of oil allowing metal to metal contact. im up in the air on the chemical makeup of the oils. as noted on an earlier posting the 4.3 chevy i tore down had no special oils added, the thing is he changed on schedule and never ran it low. upon inspection of the engine it was not sludged up and the cylinder bores were at 4.00 with no ridge at the top. the engine had 194000 miles on it. i would of thought the engine had 20 or 30 k on it. this of course is only my opinion and i am a skeptic and this engines proves that regular oil changes and not running them low is what extends the life, it had no synthetics or snake oils and so on.... |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Because of my anal nature, I wanted to follow thru & called SECC Dealer & talked to Woody. He said they are using straight 40W on these flat tappet engines. He said he was not aware of the Zddp issue.
So Boat Dr. you are right, Rotella T 40W is the best & most cost effective choice. I might opt for 30W in the spring up north here,& switch to 40W in Mid summer. I humbly apologize for creating all this consternation. Chris |
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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The 4.3 Chevy is a pretty reliable engine for whatever reason. I drove a work van with the 4.3 to the emissions test facility during a summer job with over 200k on the clock. Still had plenty of spunk- I could do full burnouts in it, I can tell you that. Anyway, the emissions test guy said he sees the 4.3's come back year after year with insanely high miles. |
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2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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I believe the 4.3 is simply a Chevy 350 with 2 cylinders lopped off. Talk about a proven design! I sure dont know my Chevy history, but I believe that the SBC's (and likely the 4.3?) have been roller for some time. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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with 200 on the ticker i would of thought those cylinders would be out a few thousandth's. the spec was 4.00 and every cylinder was within a thousandth or so. no ridge at the top and so on. Ive had them with 80000 on them and tore them apart and they were junk, oil sludged, cylinders egg shaped with a heavy ridge at the top and of course the crank wiped.
my point on the above post is he changed his oil regularly and always checks the oil. he never overheated the engine. he doesnt use special oils or synthetics, |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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Lottsa cam failures over the past 2 years.Seems to match up with the time line of the oil co. and the remormulation of their oils. Keep coming back Chris , we love to badger you and will continue to do so till we get you in line........boat dr |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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wrong the blocks aren't even close to being the same any where. |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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You sure? Like I said, Im no Chevy expert, but this article seems to disagree: Chevy 4.3L 262ci V-6 - The 3/4 350 "The '85-up Chevy 4.3L, 262ci V-6 is very much like a small-block Chevy minus the number 3 and 6 cylinders (check the valve layout and you'll see how we came up with that conclusion). But first, a little V-6 lore. The units we're concerned with are the Chevy 90-degree variety, meaning that the cylinder banks are set at a 90-degree angleto each other, just like a small-block V-8. The bore centers (4.400) and deck height (9.025) are also identical to a Mouse motor. The '85-up 4.3L V-6 has the same bore and stroke as a 350 V-8 (4.000x3.480), and takes the same pistons, cam bearings, main bearings, valvetrain parts, timing cover, oil pump, and front dress. Any V-8 trans will bolt right up to the 90-degree sixer." |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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they also run a balance shaft above the cam for balance and vibes, over the last few years i have probably put 6 or so crank kits in them, pretty durable engine except for the cranks, it does look like a sbc with 2 less cylinders,
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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behindpropeller
Platinum Member Joined: July-31-2006 Status: Offline Points: 1810 |
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http://www.aslcamguard.com/
Interesting to read you guys blab on all day about ZDDP when the number one thing that will kill 99% of boat engines is CORROSION |
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taxabel
Groupie Joined: September-10-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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I just happened to be ready to make an oil change. So, on a 1984 Commander, I should pick Shell Rotalla T 40 weight. I have learned correctly?
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84raidertique
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Guests
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rotella t 15w -40 synthetic for 16/gal at you local store
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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Yes, either Rotella 30w or 40w, or Valvoline VR1 (which comes in 10w30, 20w50 or 50w). |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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So not only are you using (and recommending) the wrong oil, but youre getting ripped on the price too? Rotella is $10/gallon locally here. VR1 is only sold by the qt, and is under $3. |
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Guests
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tr-where you gettin it for 10 15- 40 synthetic?..i guess iam..as long as your running oil with it filled properly and change it every 50 hours im sure you will be ok..ok on a serious note your saying rotella t 40 weight dino or valvoline vr1 is better than the 15-40 synthetic?.what about the pennzoil 15-40?...thats what i have been running in my nautique..i run rotella in my 01 dodge durango and 2004 gsxr 750..no problems yet..enlighten me, and im really not trying to be an ass here..
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21169 |
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My bad, somehow I missed that it was synthetic. Per Doc's conversation with the engineer from Shell, it still wont have the zinc. Your money would be better spent on the right oil. No advantage to running synthetic if youre changing at the 50 hr mark anyways. Yes, the 30w and 40w Rotella, or Valvoline VR1 is better for our flat tappet Fords than any oil that doesnt have the zinc- synthetic or not. We know for sure that Shell has eliminated the ZDDP from the Rotella 15w40. I suspect that the Pennzoil would be the same since its primary market would be diesels. Easiest way to check would be to look at the label- if it meets CJ-4, it doesnt have the zinc. If it meets CF-4 or doesnt meet any API spec, then theres a chance the zinc hasnt been eliminated (yet). |
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boat dr
Grand Poobah Joined: June-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4245 |
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The Zinc has been removed from all their oils BUT 40T and 30T,how much plainer than that .Back up and read the previous posts...................boat dr
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ok read this ..the zinc is for metal to metal contact in which hopefully your oil is preventing this, if not the zinc reacts and acts to prevent scuffing and wear.the higher the amount of zinc doesnt give you more protection just longer if your motor expierences scuffing and wear for a longer time..too much zinc is bad cause it cna lead to deposits and plug fouling..
anyways i can ramble on ...my 2 cents |
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