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OHH NO!! White Smoke and Metallic Sounds!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2008 at 4:15pm

Will be doing a compression test tonight.

I have drained my oil..

Do I need to refill my oil for just a brief compression test?

A few more details:

Are commander engine gaskets the same as for the PCM 351's?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2008 at 11:20pm

Well. The verdict is still at large...

I did a compression test without any plugs in the engine block on the passenger side of the boat all test came back btw 130 and 135.

Then pulled the head... and I found water in my cylinders. Check out the pics of the engine here:

http://web.mac.com/karriekimbrell/iWeb/Site%2010/Photos.html

The head gasket and exhaust manifold gasket seem to be intacked and in good order.

The drain plug on the drivers side is not in?
The PO had the boat in a garage all winter.

I have been running the boat for several weeks w o issues... changed the plugs wires, and now this...

Another anomaly is the bell-housing gasket is leaking a little.

Taking the head to the machine shop in the AM.

Any ideas?


Cheers for learning the fun way.
jamie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2008 at 11:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2008 at 11:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2008 at 11:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-28-2008 at 11:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 1:11am

HELP!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark Mel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 2:47pm
Do you have both of your rubber exhaust flaps still on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 2:56pm
What is the diagonal line in the front of the lifter valley?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 3:00pm
dont overlook the intake as being the problem too!!! look underneath where the thermostat is housed, they will crack in the area, it is very thin there
"the things you own will start to own you"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 3:20pm
Greg, I caught that too but I'm not to sure it is a crack. The line is on the push rod too.

Jamie, You said a drain plug was missing on the engine? Are you sure it is a drain plug? You would have had lots of water coming out of it if it is. Did you run it like that?

Don't worry about the rubber exhaust flappers. They weren't even put on inboards until the 70's and it's still up in the air as to the purpose of them!

Did you find water in all the cylinders?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Greg, I caught that too but I'm not to sure it is a crack. The line is on the push rod too.


And I saw that...LOL. It almost looks like a rust line, but I hope not. He'll let us know.

Eric, I forgot about the underside of the thermo housing; that was cracked on my 79...along with 2 heads and a block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 3:32pm
don't sweat the line it's a wire hanging down, boy you guys need your eyes checked. Can't you see the ring terminal on the end of it?

I'm betting it's the exhaust manifolds causing the problem.

but he should have done a leak down test instead of the compression text oh well too late now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 4:14pm
remember what daddy said, keep playin with that thing and you'll go blind, i think this applies here
"the things you own will start to own you"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

remember what daddy said, keep playin with that thing and you'll go blind, i think this applies here


From what your wife tells me, at least I have a thing that still works!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 4:33pm
Good eye Chris...and I do need new glasses!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 4:37pm
That engine was fine until he tore the thing all apart.
He pulled the plugs and spun the engine to remove the water in the cylinders before the compression test. Had 130-135 compression across the port side. That's perfectly normal compression for an older engine. Rings, gaskets and valves are fine with those numbers. What was the compression numbers on the starboard side? He doesn't say or didn't do them. That wouldn't make sense. So how do you get water into the cylinders if the engine hasn't been run?
Answer: Pull the head and you can't help but get water in the cylinders unless you drain the block and heads first. I somehow doubt that was done.
The original problem was smoke out the port exhaust. Why then tear the head off the starboard side? You can still see in the pics that the port head is still in place.

I agree with Chris. The exhaust manifold and/or riser are the problem on the port side if that's truely where the smoke was.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 79nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 4:43pm
well since you have it off all ready you might has well get a new cam and buy my tricked out heads, exhaust manifolds and chrome intake to dress that motor up and give it some punch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 4:56pm
remember Pete, she comes with 2 kids and credit card bills, she's high maintanance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 7:11pm
I also don't see why it was taken it apart at this point. Compression was good, it was time to test remove and pressure test the exhaust manifolds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 9:49pm

Gentlemen.

I took the head to the machine shop and indeed the head gasket was blown, the head is warped, the valves are not seated correctly.

The head gasket on the motor was a low grade non recommended gasket for this commander.... Installed by the PO.

The head had obvious signs of being blown with black areas btw the cylinders.

I am still unclear of the exhaust manifold causing this? Please explain further, as my logs and gaskets look fine?

Thanks for your all your continued support.








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

remember Pete, she comes with 2 kids and credit card bills, she's high maintanance


I was driving home today and thought to myself that my post sure was out of character for myself and I hoped you wouldn't take it bad! Don't worry Eric, I've got my own wife, 2 kids (in college) and of coarse the bills too!

I'm heading up north for the weekend to get all the boats going. (I'm trying to beat CQ to get them in and running) I certainly hope I don't join the spring time problem group here and end up having to ask for help!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 10:11pm


It seems like everyone got a little out of character on this post... I had several beers fueling my post.

I hope to spread nothing but good wrenching cheer as I am enjoying this process, I hope you ALL are too.

Any further comments on how to diagnose if my exhaust manifold and or gaskets are partially causing the problem.. as it could of let the water in then the heads blew?

Should i put a water hose to the water jackets on the exhaust logs and see if it leaks?


NOTE
Less than 200 bucks for all this head work on both heads and gaskets too. A good way to know for sure if things are in order. the machine shop works on 351's all day long for the last 50 years... So, I think I can trust what they say.


Thanks.
Jamie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-29-2008 at 11:05pm
Jamie, Yes, as long as you have gone this far, put water in the manifolds and see if you can spot a leak. A block off plate can also be made to cap the open ports. Then you can pressurize the water which is a better test method.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2008 at 10:12am
I laughed and thought i got Pete out of his element, we joke everyday that way Pete
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gigem75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2008 at 1:43pm
Wake, sounds like the PO probably overheated the engine (from running out of the water:) and slapped it back together to make a hot weekend. It's happened before.
The head was probably warped when all that happened and he didn't have it resurfaced.
Make sure you have a good tourque wrench and tourque to specs, don't go by this but I think it's 60, 90, and 112 ft/lbs. Make sure the threads are clean and a drop or two of oill on the threads will help give you good torque numbers. Do it in the correct pattern from the inside out. Make sure all your gasket sealing surfaces are clean, clean, clean. You can install the outer two bolts with the exhaust manifold then drop the gasket in. A little spray of the copper coat gasket sealer in the aersol can wouldn't hurt either. I use the grey permatex gasket maker to seal the cork and where it meets the intake manifold gaskets. It really helps to have two people lower it straight down. Hope this helps and good luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote backfoot100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2008 at 1:44pm
I've reread this thing at least a dozen times and I'm still confused, but that's not unusual. Which head is the one with the blown gasket? Port or starboard. You say that you had smoke from the port exhaust, yet everything that you posted relates to the starboard head. Now you're getting both heads rebuilt. Which head gasket is the one that the PO replaced?

Definitely check the exhaust manifolds as Pete has suggested. Easy to do and definitely confirms that they're sound.

You say that the gaskets are included with the cost of the rebuild. Make sure that they're marine gaskets. If you put standard automotive gaskets in there, you'll have the same issue all over again.

When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wakesurfer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2008 at 2:09pm

Checked the exhaust manifold w a water test   no water getting into exhaust.

The head gaskets on the boat were cheap automotive kind. valves had not been done at all.

The compression test had everything from 120 to 148.

Thanks guys!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2008 at 2:39pm
You can get 120 psi with a blown had gasket?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-30-2008 at 2:48pm
Not in my experience but if the cylinder (or in this case water passage)next to it is already full of water? I have also not hydrolocked an engine from a blown head gasket either. But I would think both scenarios are a lot more possible with a warped head caused head gasket failure than the standard blowout between the cylinders failure. Its all still a bit fishy though I would definitly be looking for maniford (both intake and exhaust) cracks very carefully.
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