OHH NO!! White Smoke and Metallic Sounds! |
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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Will be doing a compression test tonight. I have drained my oil.. Do I need to refill my oil for just a brief compression test? A few more details: Are commander engine gaskets the same as for the PCM 351's? |
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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Well. The verdict is still at large... I did a compression test without any plugs in the engine block on the passenger side of the boat all test came back btw 130 and 135. Then pulled the head... and I found water in my cylinders. Check out the pics of the engine here: http://web.mac.com/karriekimbrell/iWeb/Site%2010/Photos.html The head gasket and exhaust manifold gasket seem to be intacked and in good order. The drain plug on the drivers side is not in? The PO had the boat in a garage all winter. I have been running the boat for several weeks w o issues... changed the plugs wires, and now this... Another anomaly is the bell-housing gasket is leaking a little. Taking the head to the machine shop in the AM. Any ideas? Cheers for learning the fun way. jamie newbie wrencher |
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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wakesurfer
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wakesurfer
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wakesurfer
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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HELP! |
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Mark Mel
Gold Member Joined: September-16-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 583 |
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Do you have both of your rubber exhaust flaps still on?
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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What is the diagonal line in the front of the lifter valley?
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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dont overlook the intake as being the problem too!!! look underneath where the thermostat is housed, they will crack in the area, it is very thin there
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Greg, I caught that too but I'm not to sure it is a crack. The line is on the push rod too.
Jamie, You said a drain plug was missing on the engine? Are you sure it is a drain plug? You would have had lots of water coming out of it if it is. Did you run it like that? Don't worry about the rubber exhaust flappers. They weren't even put on inboards until the 70's and it's still up in the air as to the purpose of them! Did you find water in all the cylinders? |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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And I saw that...LOL. It almost looks like a rust line, but I hope not. He'll let us know. Eric, I forgot about the underside of the thermo housing; that was cracked on my 79...along with 2 heads and a block. |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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don't sweat the line it's a wire hanging down, boy you guys need your eyes checked. Can't you see the ring terminal on the end of it?
I'm betting it's the exhaust manifolds causing the problem. but he should have done a leak down test instead of the compression text oh well too late now. |
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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remember what daddy said, keep playin with that thing and you'll go blind, i think this applies here
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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From what your wife tells me, at least I have a thing that still works! |
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BuffaloBFN
Grand Poobah Joined: June-24-2007 Location: Gainesville,GA Status: Offline Points: 6094 |
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Good eye Chris...and I do need new glasses!
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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That engine was fine until he tore the thing all apart.
He pulled the plugs and spun the engine to remove the water in the cylinders before the compression test. Had 130-135 compression across the port side. That's perfectly normal compression for an older engine. Rings, gaskets and valves are fine with those numbers. What was the compression numbers on the starboard side? He doesn't say or didn't do them. That wouldn't make sense. So how do you get water into the cylinders if the engine hasn't been run? Answer: Pull the head and you can't help but get water in the cylinders unless you drain the block and heads first. I somehow doubt that was done. The original problem was smoke out the port exhaust. Why then tear the head off the starboard side? You can still see in the pics that the port head is still in place. I agree with Chris. The exhaust manifold and/or riser are the problem on the port side if that's truely where the smoke was. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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79nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: January-27-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 7872 |
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well since you have it off all ready you might has well get a new cam and buy my tricked out heads, exhaust manifolds and chrome intake to dress that motor up and give it some punch.
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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remember Pete, she comes with 2 kids and credit card bills, she's high maintanance
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
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I also don't see why it was taken it apart at this point. Compression was good, it was time to test remove and pressure test the exhaust manifolds.
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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Gentlemen. I took the head to the machine shop and indeed the head gasket was blown, the head is warped, the valves are not seated correctly. The head gasket on the motor was a low grade non recommended gasket for this commander.... Installed by the PO. The head had obvious signs of being blown with black areas btw the cylinders. I am still unclear of the exhaust manifold causing this? Please explain further, as my logs and gaskets look fine? Thanks for your all your continued support. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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I was driving home today and thought to myself that my post sure was out of character for myself and I hoped you wouldn't take it bad! Don't worry Eric, I've got my own wife, 2 kids (in college) and of coarse the bills too! I'm heading up north for the weekend to get all the boats going. (I'm trying to beat CQ to get them in and running) I certainly hope I don't join the spring time problem group here and end up having to ask for help! |
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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It seems like everyone got a little out of character on this post... I had several beers fueling my post. I hope to spread nothing but good wrenching cheer as I am enjoying this process, I hope you ALL are too. Any further comments on how to diagnose if my exhaust manifold and or gaskets are partially causing the problem.. as it could of let the water in then the heads blew? Should i put a water hose to the water jackets on the exhaust logs and see if it leaks? NOTE Less than 200 bucks for all this head work on both heads and gaskets too. A good way to know for sure if things are in order. the machine shop works on 351's all day long for the last 50 years... So, I think I can trust what they say. Thanks. Jamie |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41040 |
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Jamie, Yes, as long as you have gone this far, put water in the manifolds and see if you can spot a leak. A block off plate can also be made to cap the open ports. Then you can pressurize the water which is a better test method.
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eric lavine
Grand Poobah Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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I laughed and thought i got Pete out of his element, we joke everyday that way Pete
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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gigem75
Senior Member Joined: November-12-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 239 |
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Wake, sounds like the PO probably overheated the engine (from running out of the water:) and slapped it back together to make a hot weekend. It's happened before.
The head was probably warped when all that happened and he didn't have it resurfaced. Make sure you have a good tourque wrench and tourque to specs, don't go by this but I think it's 60, 90, and 112 ft/lbs. Make sure the threads are clean and a drop or two of oill on the threads will help give you good torque numbers. Do it in the correct pattern from the inside out. Make sure all your gasket sealing surfaces are clean, clean, clean. You can install the outer two bolts with the exhaust manifold then drop the gasket in. A little spray of the copper coat gasket sealer in the aersol can wouldn't hurt either. I use the grey permatex gasket maker to seal the cork and where it meets the intake manifold gaskets. It really helps to have two people lower it straight down. Hope this helps and good luck! |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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I've reread this thing at least a dozen times and I'm still confused, but that's not unusual. Which head is the one with the blown gasket? Port or starboard. You say that you had smoke from the port exhaust, yet everything that you posted relates to the starboard head. Now you're getting both heads rebuilt. Which head gasket is the one that the PO replaced?
Definitely check the exhaust manifolds as Pete has suggested. Easy to do and definitely confirms that they're sound. You say that the gaskets are included with the cost of the rebuild. Make sure that they're marine gaskets. If you put standard automotive gaskets in there, you'll have the same issue all over again. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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wakesurfer
Senior Member Joined: April-22-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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Checked the exhaust manifold w a water test no water getting into exhaust. The head gaskets on the boat were cheap automotive kind. valves had not been done at all. The compression test had everything from 120 to 148. Thanks guys! |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13512 |
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You can get 120 psi with a blown had gasket?
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5697 |
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Not in my experience but if the cylinder (or in this case water passage)next to it is already full of water? I have also not hydrolocked an engine from a blown head gasket either. But I would think both scenarios are a lot more possible with a warped head caused head gasket failure than the standard blowout between the cylinders failure. Its all still a bit fishy though I would definitly be looking for maniford (both intake and exhaust) cracks very carefully.
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