Stumble and Backfire during accel |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Not sure I follow on the 45 degrees thing.
Are you talking about where the dizzy falls into the oil pump drive? Pics? |
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ski_in6
Newbie Joined: March-11-2014 Location: Lafayette IN Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Anyone have a picture of how they mounted the coil? I have read the posts about mounting it vertically for longer life. It seems quite constrained with the wire lengths that are provided...
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KAI
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ski_in6
Newbie Joined: March-11-2014 Location: Lafayette IN Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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There are 8 firings every 720 crank degrees, equally spaced. So the electronic "points" open once every 90 degrees, 45 cam degrees. When I set #1 to TDC and position the rotor cap so that the rotor lines up with the #1 cylinder wire, I don't know where the 'points' are relative to the next ignition event - worst case, I could exactly half way between 2 events, or out by 45 degrees.
I just tried to start it. It coughs and backfires, but won't start and run... am checking wires now. |
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KAI
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Sorry my comment wasn't helpful. Can you use a timing light while engine cranks to find out where you are at?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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ski_in6
Newbie Joined: March-11-2014 Location: Lafayette IN Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Proof once again that I'm not a good mechanic - I proved to myself that the rotor went counterclockwise (looking down from the top), but I didn't even think about it when I put the wires on in clockwise order... when this finally dawned on me, and I got them in the right order, it fired up.
Thanks very much to everyone who gave input. I couldn't have worked my way through this without your help! |
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KAI
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Ahh, I see what you mean. The dizzy (distributor) is in sync with the camshaft though, not the crankshaft. So, it only turns once with every two turns of the crank and therefore there are 8 firing events per 360 degrees of dizzy spin.
Since we're on it, I'll mention one pitfall, make sure your number one cylinder is at top dead center of the compression stroke... not the exhaust stroke. Also, don't overthink the "points" opening aspect. When you loosen the clamp bolt, you get (almost) infinitely fine adjustability. Another words, you could theoretically adjust the timing by one degree or a half a degree of a tenth of a degree, if you were using some sort of robotic protractor hand instead of human fingers. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Glad it fired up, nice
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mamigacz
Groupie Joined: June-08-2014 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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Here is where I mounted mine. I had to fab a bracket to make it work. |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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If your ignition is properly wired with the proper parts there is no need to mount the coil vertical.
My '85s oil filled has been mounted horizontally since day one no problems. |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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I’ve got a similar problem to that experienced by ski_in6. I’ve got a ’94 Ski Nautique (closed bow) with a Ford 351-based PCM engine with 600 hours on it. She starts right up, and is fine for maybe ten minutes or so. But then, she begins to stumble, and sometimes even dies, when I give it a lot of throttle rapidly. If I inch the throttle up very gradually, she’s fine. At other times, she accelerates fine under heavy throttle, but within a few seconds dies suddenly and completely, as though the ignition key has been turned off.
In either circumstance, I remove the distributor cap and replace it. She goes back to operating perfectly, and the cycle begins again. It’s unclear whether the fix derives from removing and replacing the cap, or just from letting the engine sit for a few minutes while if fiddle with the cap. She’s had the problematic Pro-Tec ignition system replaced. She was tuned up spring of last year, at which time the plugs, wires, and distributor cap and rotor were replaced. The carburetor was rebuilt this spring, and the fuel filter changed out at the same time. I just recently replaced the distributor cap again. I had been thinking that the problem was ionization under the distributor cap, and had planned to install a vented cap, but now I’m thinking that’s not likely to be the solution, given the prior entries in this thread. (I’ll probably do it anyway, since a cap is cheap.) Also, the bowl of the distributor is vented. Although I haven’t checked to see whether the vent might be blocked, I doubt that’s the case, as the bowl was new a couple of years ago. I’m now thinking that the problem with the stumbling might be the coil (even though it was new only a year ago), and the outright dying might be a bad connection in the wiring behind the dashboard. Or possibly both symptoms are due to the latter possible cause. Any thoughts? |
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Next time it acts up feel the coil to see how hot it is. My guess would be the coil is overheating then by the time you change the cap it has cooled down only to overheat again.
What kind of distributor are you running (points/electronic). |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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We felt the coil last time we had this problem and, yes, it was hot. Although I'd expect it to be at least warm when operating normally. How hot is too hot? Such that you can't keep your hand in contact with it for more than a split second?
Electronic. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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When you get the outright dying, do you lose other functions? Blower, Navlights, horn etc.?
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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I didn't test the horn or the nav lights, but I think the blower cut out as well. I'll check again next time it happens. You're thinking it's a problem with the wiring behind the dash?
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Well, it could be the key or something. Next time it cuts out, see if you can take an inventory of what still works, and whether or not it is key switched or dash breaker switched.
For example, my blower would switch on with just the dash ignition breaker, so if my blower stopped working, I'd be looking at the dash ignition breaker and upstream. Heat increases the resistance of all electrical connections. So, a connections is already loose, dirty or corroded, it's going to act up more when the boat is hot. I'd start by inspecting and cleaning your electrical connections under the doghouse. |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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Thanks. I'll try all of those suggestions.
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gun-driver
Grand Poobah Joined: July-18-2008 Location: Pittsburgh, Pa Status: Offline Points: 4112 |
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Yes to hot to touch. Is it a electronic conversion(replacing points plate) or a electronic distributor. |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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Electronic. Or so the mechanic tells me. I wouldn't know the difference.
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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Sorry. Electronic distributor, I believe. But I don't know the difference between an electronic distributor and a non-electronic distributor. This distributor looks like distributors I've seen on cars vintage the 1960s and '70s. But the marina tells me it's electronic.
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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This will help somewhat, but you really need to see under the cap to know:
http://www.skidim.com/distributor.asp Under the cap, an electronic would look something like this: And points would look something like this: |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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Thanks. That's very helpful. Next time I'm at the boat this weekend, I'll look. At this point, though, I'm pretty sure it's electronic, based on what the marina has told me. (They did the conversion from Pro-Tec.)
Assuming the distributor is electronic, does that suggest any other ideas? |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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It sounds like coil. Either the coil itself is bad, or it the ballast resister isn't wired in correctly.
It seems like a lot of those Protec to Distributor conversion kits came with a less than great coil. I've heard good things about the MSD Blaster II as a replacement. |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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I believe (although I'm not certain) that these symptoms started well after the conversion was done. That suggests the problem is not that the ballast resistor was wired incorrectly. I suppose it's possible the wiring connections to the ballast resistor are faulty, however.
Sounds like the best course of action is: 1. Replace the coil, and 2. Check all wiring connections on the dashboard and the engine, and particularly those to the ballast resistor. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Sounds like a plan.
I'm sure you realize that if you're getting an interruption in your ignition (purple or red), no coil is going to help. But, in the interest of time, it's going to take a few days to get a coil in hand, probably doesn't hurt to order it as it's a likely suspect if you're engine is cutting out and all of your dash functions are still working. |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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You overestimate me. I don't know what you mean by "purple or red" or, for that matter, an "interruption" in the ignition.
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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Basically, the dash power source (Battery Positive) wire is red. Usually the ignition wire switched on by the key is Purple.
When I say interruption, I mean a break or open in the circuit. This is normally a switch, but if you've got something funny going on like a loose or corroded connection, this is going to act like a "switch" and open or interrupt the circuit. What I was getting at, is your coil needs a steady, un-interruped feed of positive current to work. The positive current wire should be purple, but it might be red. If the circuit is opened (flow is interrupted) then the coil won't do it's job of making spark, no matter how good it is. This diagram should help: |
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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Ah right. Yes, that much I understand. I will check all the connections I can find to make sure they look clean and secure. Thanks for the diagram. That will help make sure I get them all.
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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While I have your attention, do you know the answer to this question:
I have a 1994 Ski Nautique closed bow with a PCM engine. The plate on the engine says it's a model PLP-PR-R12PT. My owners' manual seems to say that the boat could possibly be equipped with any one of the following four engine models: PLB, PL&RC, PL&RD, or PL&RP. Can anyone tell me which of those four is mine? What's the logic that maps the number on my engine to one of the models listed in the manual? I can't find anyplace in the manual where this is explained. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I saw that you posted this question yesterday. I am not at all up on the newer engines but I'll say this, the owners manual unlike autos could be very different from what is actually in the boat. Yours may have been upgraded,I do believe that serial prefex is the higher hp one. Write to the factory and see if they will look up the serial number of your hull and if that motor serial number is original to when the boat left the factory.
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pcrowley203
Newbie Joined: June-18-2014 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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Wow. It had never occurred to me that the engine might have been swapped out at some point. I bought the boat in 1992, becoming its third owner. At that point, the hours read (for whatever that's worth) 300. The engine looked like old technology, even then. It looks like the pictures in the manual, although those pictures are of poor quality, so it's a bit hard to say for sure.
I went onto the CorrectCraft site about a week ago and posed the question to them. I've not had an answer yet. |
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