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Stumble and Backfire during accel

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Bri892001 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2014 at 4:36pm
Not sure I follow on the 45 degrees thing.

Are you talking about where the dizzy falls into the oil pump drive?

Pics?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ski_in6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2014 at 10:08pm
Anyone have a picture of how they mounted the coil? I have read the posts about mounting it vertically for longer life. It seems quite constrained with the wire lengths that are provided...
KAI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ski_in6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2014 at 11:49pm
There are 8 firings every 720 crank degrees, equally spaced. So the electronic "points" open once every 90 degrees, 45 cam degrees. When I set #1 to TDC and position the rotor cap so that the rotor lines up with the #1 cylinder wire, I don't know where the 'points' are relative to the next ignition event - worst case, I could exactly half way between 2 events, or out by 45 degrees.

I just tried to start it. It coughs and backfires, but won't start and run... am checking wires now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 12:39am
Sorry my comment wasn't helpful. Can you use a timing light while engine cranks to find out where you are at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ski_in6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 1:23am
Proof once again that I'm not a good mechanic - I proved to myself that the rotor went counterclockwise (looking down from the top), but I didn't even think about it when I put the wires on in clockwise order... when this finally dawned on me, and I got them in the right order, it fired up.

Thanks very much to everyone who gave input. I couldn't have worked my way through this without your help!
KAI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 1:32am
Ahh, I see what you mean. The dizzy (distributor) is in sync with the camshaft though, not the crankshaft. So, it only turns once with every two turns of the crank and therefore there are 8 firing events per 360 degrees of dizzy spin.

Since we're on it, I'll mention one pitfall, make sure your number one cylinder is at top dead center of the compression stroke... not the exhaust stroke.

Also, don't overthink the "points" opening aspect. When you loosen the clamp bolt, you get (almost) infinitely fine adjustability. Another words, you could theoretically adjust the timing by one degree or a half a degree of a tenth of a degree, if you were using some sort of robotic protractor hand instead of human fingers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 1:41am
Glad it fired up, nice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamigacz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 11:48am
Originally posted by ski_in6 ski_in6 wrote:

Anyone have a picture of how they mounted the coil? I have read the posts about mounting it vertically for longer life. It seems quite constrained with the wire lengths that are provided...


Here is where I mounted mine. I had to fab a bracket to make it work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 12:55pm
If your ignition is properly wired with the proper parts there is no need to mount the coil vertical.
My '85s oil filled has been mounted horizontally since day one no problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2014 at 7:58pm
I’ve got a similar problem to that experienced by ski_in6. I’ve got a ’94 Ski Nautique (closed bow) with a Ford 351-based PCM engine with 600 hours on it. She starts right up, and is fine for maybe ten minutes or so. But then, she begins to stumble, and sometimes even dies, when I give it a lot of throttle rapidly. If I inch the throttle up very gradually, she’s fine. At other times, she accelerates fine under heavy throttle, but within a few seconds dies suddenly and completely, as though the ignition key has been turned off.

In either circumstance, I remove the distributor cap and replace it. She goes back to operating perfectly, and the cycle begins again. It’s unclear whether the fix derives from removing and replacing the cap, or just from letting the engine sit for a few minutes while if fiddle with the cap.

She’s had the problematic Pro-Tec ignition system replaced. She was tuned up spring of last year, at which time the plugs, wires, and distributor cap and rotor were replaced. The carburetor was rebuilt this spring, and the fuel filter changed out at the same time. I just recently replaced the distributor cap again.

I had been thinking that the problem was ionization under the distributor cap, and had planned to install a vented cap, but now I’m thinking that’s not likely to be the solution, given the prior entries in this thread. (I’ll probably do it anyway, since a cap is cheap.) Also, the bowl of the distributor is vented. Although I haven’t checked to see whether the vent might be blocked, I doubt that’s the case, as the bowl was new a couple of years ago.

I’m now thinking that the problem with the stumbling might be the coil (even though it was new only a year ago), and the outright dying might be a bad connection in the wiring behind the dashboard. Or possibly both symptoms are due to the latter possible cause.

Any thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2014 at 5:53pm
Next time it acts up feel the coil to see how hot it is. My guess would be the coil is overheating then by the time you change the cap it has cooled down only to overheat again.
What kind of distributor are you running (points/electronic).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2014 at 5:56pm
We felt the coil last time we had this problem and, yes, it was hot. Although I'd expect it to be at least warm when operating normally. How hot is too hot? Such that you can't keep your hand in contact with it for more than a split second?

Electronic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2014 at 6:43pm
When you get the outright dying, do you lose other functions? Blower, Navlights, horn etc.?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2014 at 6:54pm
I didn't test the horn or the nav lights, but I think the blower cut out as well. I'll check again next time it happens. You're thinking it's a problem with the wiring behind the dash?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2014 at 7:27pm
Well, it could be the key or something. Next time it cuts out, see if you can take an inventory of what still works, and whether or not it is key switched or dash breaker switched.

For example, my blower would switch on with just the dash ignition breaker, so if my blower stopped working, I'd be looking at the dash ignition breaker and upstream.

Heat increases the resistance of all electrical connections. So, a connections is already loose, dirty or corroded, it's going to act up more when the boat is hot. I'd start by inspecting and cleaning your electrical connections under the doghouse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-19-2014 at 10:12pm
Thanks. I'll try all of those suggestions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 2:09am
Originally posted by pcrowley203 pcrowley203 wrote:

We felt the coil last time we had this problem and, yes, it was hot. Although I'd expect it to be at least warm when operating normally. How hot is too hot? Such that you can't keep your hand in contact with it for more than a split second?

Electronic.


Yes to hot to touch.
Is it a electronic conversion(replacing points plate) or a electronic distributor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 10:04am
Electronic. Or so the mechanic tells me. I wouldn't know the difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 2:27pm
Sorry. Electronic distributor, I believe. But I don't know the difference between an electronic distributor and a non-electronic distributor. This distributor looks like distributors I've seen on cars vintage the 1960s and '70s. But the marina tells me it's electronic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 2:43pm
This will help somewhat, but you really need to see under the cap to know:
http://www.skidim.com/distributor.asp

Under the cap, an electronic would look something like this:


And points would look something like this:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 2:48pm
Thanks. That's very helpful. Next time I'm at the boat this weekend, I'll look. At this point, though, I'm pretty sure it's electronic, based on what the marina has told me. (They did the conversion from Pro-Tec.)

Assuming the distributor is electronic, does that suggest any other ideas?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 3:14pm
It sounds like coil. Either the coil itself is bad, or it the ballast resister isn't wired in correctly.

It seems like a lot of those Protec to Distributor conversion kits came with a less than great coil. I've heard good things about the MSD Blaster II as a replacement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 3:35pm
I believe (although I'm not certain) that these symptoms started well after the conversion was done. That suggests the problem is not that the ballast resistor was wired incorrectly. I suppose it's possible the wiring connections to the ballast resistor are faulty, however.

Sounds like the best course of action is:
1. Replace the coil, and
2. Check all wiring connections on the dashboard and the engine, and particularly those to the ballast resistor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 4:46pm
Sounds like a plan.

I'm sure you realize that if you're getting an interruption in your ignition (purple or red), no coil is going to help.

But, in the interest of time, it's going to take a few days to get a coil in hand, probably doesn't hurt to order it as it's a likely suspect if you're engine is cutting out and all of your dash functions are still working.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 4:50pm
You overestimate me. I don't know what you mean by "purple or red" or, for that matter, an "interruption" in the ignition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 5:44pm
Basically, the dash power source (Battery Positive) wire is red. Usually the ignition wire switched on by the key is Purple.

When I say interruption, I mean a break or open in the circuit. This is normally a switch, but if you've got something funny going on like a loose or corroded connection, this is going to act like a "switch" and open or interrupt the circuit.

What I was getting at, is your coil needs a steady, un-interruped feed of positive current to work. The positive current wire should be purple, but it might be red. If the circuit is opened (flow is interrupted) then the coil won't do it's job of making spark, no matter how good it is.

This diagram should help:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 5:59pm
Ah right. Yes, that much I understand. I will check all the connections I can find to make sure they look clean and secure. Thanks for the diagram. That will help make sure I get them all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 6:13pm
While I have your attention, do you know the answer to this question:

I have a 1994 Ski Nautique closed bow with a PCM engine. The plate on the engine says it's a model PLP-PR-R12PT. My owners' manual seems to say that the boat could possibly be equipped with any one of the following four engine models: PLB, PL&RC, PL&RD, or PL&RP. Can anyone tell me which of those four is mine? What's the logic that maps the number on my engine to one of the models listed in the manual? I can't find anyplace in the manual where this is explained.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 6:38pm
I saw that you posted this question yesterday. I am not at all up on the newer engines but I'll say this, the owners manual unlike autos could be very different from what is actually in the boat. Yours may have been upgraded,I do believe that serial prefex is the higher hp one. Write to the factory and see if they will look up the serial number of your hull and if that motor serial number is original to when the boat left the factory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrowley203 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-20-2014 at 7:01pm
Wow. It had never occurred to me that the engine might have been swapped out at some point. I bought the boat in 1992, becoming its third owner. At that point, the hours read (for whatever that's worth) 300. The engine looked like old technology, even then. It looks like the pictures in the manual, although those pictures are of poor quality, so it's a bit hard to say for sure.

I went onto the CorrectCraft site about a week ago and posed the question to them. I've not had an answer yet.
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