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Sea water mystery

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DenDen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-09-2023 at 9:00am
I wish I could fire it up but it needed a starter so I took the old one off and order a new one. I hope it comes on Monday along with a new thermostat and I can get this thing going Tuesday or Wednesday.
Again, thanks everyone for your help. This is a great forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 8:43am
Got the new parts, starter and thermostat installed them and dropped her in the pond. Pretty much nothing changed. Still no water until bleeding. Air out of the outline on the pump. Tried both pumps. At this point the only thing I haven’t changed is the line from the pump to the oil cooler. I’m going to change that and then also route around the oil cooler and see if that makes a difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 1:24pm
Pics of installed pump would help to verify the pump is oriented correctly for the rotation of the belt. Could be installed upside down?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 2:29pm
Den, I really suggest you stop launching the boat to test it, keep it on the trailer and either use the T setup I described earlier or the bucket method that Ken mentioned.  That way you really can see what's going on, is any water at all flowing.  For example, testing on the trailer you can remove the discharge hose from the pump (or other end from the oil cooler) and start it up, see if the pump is sucking up and discharging water.  If you prove that out you'll know to look downstream, if the pump isn't pumping then you don't need to worry about anything but the pump.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 3:52pm
Today I took a 5 gallon bucket filled it up, set an on the floor of the boat and hooked the pick up hose into it. Just a short time after starting the boat, it easily sucked water out of the 5 gallon bucket.
Then I took it down and floated it on the pond. Everything was as before, and it would not draw water until I air bleed the output line from the pump.
This got me thinking possibly it was the oil cooler. So I bypassed that with a clear hose it has the same results. Would not pump water until I air bleed after the pump.
At this point, I can just blame the exhaust manifolds. They are the really old style. I will try to post some pictures of everything soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 4:21pm
I put some pictures in my diary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomrupp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 5:49pm
Is your trailer bunk blocking the water intake? I’ve never heard of the though hull intake getting clogged, but yours sounds plugged or blocked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 8:13pm
Is the intake hose wire reinforced to prevent collapse during suction?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-10-2023 at 11:30pm
To answer those questions. The trailer does not block the intake port. Even if I did, my testing has been done with the boat floating off of the trailer. As for the hose yes it is a clear hose with a stiff wire wrapped through it I think you could drive the car over it and not collapse it.
As I mentioned before, we did do the bucket test. And the pump is able to draw water from the bucket . It does seem to be an intake problem. The only test I really haven’t done is remove the hose from the intake side of the pump. I have always opened on the backside of the pump so that the pump will slow the water down. Maybe tomorrow I will just back the boat in and take the intake hose off. I will keep the trailer under it of course.
Again, thanks for all the input. I will keep you posted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 7:03am
Originally posted by DenDen DenDen wrote:

At this point, I can just blame the exhaust manifolds. They are the really old style. I will try to post some pictures of everything soon.

Originally posted by DenDen DenDen wrote:


As I mentioned before, we did do the bucket test. And the pump is able to draw water from the bucket . It does seem to be an intake problem.
 

2 quotes above from yesterday.............Make up your mind will ya' Wink

How about before you put it in the pond again, you leave the suction hose hooked to the intake grate, remove it from the back of the pump and hook your garden hose into the suction hose for a backflush of the hose and the suction grate.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 7:48am
Originally posted by DenDen DenDen wrote:

I put some pictures in my diary

Only one picture in the diary

Here's the easiest way to post pictures  Watch the video at about 1/2 speed 

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Most anybody can post pictures these days even from a phone if they follow the directions below Steps 1-9 and watch the Youtube video in the link.

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by Mpost Mpost wrote:

Originally posted by 75 Tique 75 Tique wrote:

Per Ken's request/suggestion, and per Ken's efforts in finding a relatively easy way to post photos, here is a step by step process.

1.  Have photos you want to post in your phone gallery or on your computer.
2.  Open website imgbb.com
(no need to sign in, sign up, or register unless you want to)
3. click or tap on "select images to upload"
4. Go to your gallery or computer and select photo(s)
(Leave autodelete option on "dont delete")
5. click or tap "Upload"
6.  In the "Embed codes" box, scroll to and select  "BBCode full linked"
7. in the box at the bottom of the page where the photo URL shows up,  tap or click "copy"
8. Open your CCF reply and tap and paste or click and paste.
9. Voila, its there. (Note: it wont show up until you view preview or post it)

I suppose 8 steps sounds like a lot, but its mostly quick easy point and clicks (or taps)  Goes quickly and easily.  Give it a try.


Added this here so it is sticky or pinned Smile

And added this link to the You Tube video that Larry made so there are written instructions and a video showing how to do it.


Written and video instructions all in one spot Wink

Good idea Marty

 
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DenDen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 8:42am
Good morning.
I took the boat back to the pond before I read your post. Ken. Probably doesn’t matter because as soon as I pulled the hose off the intake water gushed in their full force. I am like 100% sure there’s nothing plugged up there. I’m going to try to post some pictures in a little while.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 8:58am
https://ibb.co/mRGZjwq
https://ibb.co/sF41Bk2
https://ibb.co/bRSL0vM
https://ibb.co/60cjbXT
https://ibb.co/NxfdpPL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 8:59am
Can anyone see those pictures?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 9:06am




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 9:07am
I think I got it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 9:22am
Originally posted by DenDen DenDen wrote:

I think I got it

I think you do   Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-11-2023 at 11:59am
Oh the suspense is killing me!! Smile  Good to know you have solved the problem...possibly...most likely.  I imagine Ken had a hand in the solving the puzzle??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 1:18am
When I said, I think I got it, I was referring to posting pictures.
We have still not figured out what the problem could be with the seawater prime. After talking to Steve, at length on the phone. we have pretty much decided it has something to do with the old exhaust manifolds.
So for now, we are giving up! I going to run the boat a little bit (being very careful to watch temp) and prepare for the overall this winter. In the spring or whenever I will install new exhaust manifolds or some type.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 1:28am
I might add:
Many thanks to all who helped.
And I am sure you have not heard the last from me. As this winter when I proceed to remove the engine, fix the stringers and floor, etc. I will have some questions.
And if nothing else, I will document as well as I can, my actions over the winter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 7:31am
Originally posted by DenDen DenDen wrote:

When I said, I think I got it, I was referring to posting pictures.
We have still not figured out what the problem could be with the seawater prime. After talking to Steve, at length on the phone. we have pretty much decided it has something to do with the old exhaust manifolds.
So for now, we are giving up! I going to run the boat a little bit (being very careful to watch temp) and prepare for the overall this winter. In the spring or whenever I will install new exhaust manifolds or some type.

So if I got this right, you think you can't get any flow through the exhaust manifolds, but you're gonna put the boat in the water and drive it around or maybe just sit there and watch temperatures while you cook your exhaust hoses if there's no flow.  .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fanofccfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 8:32am
Oh OK.  We will just sit back and wait then!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 9:05am
You shouldn’t have to wait too long. I’m kind of anxious to try her
I would never risk a piece of machinery, that I thought wasn’t up to the task. We have pulled off many of the hoses while the boat was running to check the water flow and it all seems to be good. When we say that we suspect the exhaust manifold is because they are highly corroded at 48 years of age. But possibly the biggest reason is we can’t find anything else wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 9:16am
Have you checked the thermostat housing to verify that you have a clear path through the housing to always supply water to the manifolds when the engine/pump is running?

There's a port that always provides flow

Or in other words, no blockage there that would prevent flow out to the manifolds

There's not been much mention of the thermostat housing, just the thermostat itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 11:13am
Den, you can see that we don't want you to give up, go a few more rounds!!!

Did you ever disconnect the hose at the oil cooler, leave it connected to the RWP, and start the engine?  If you got an instant fountain out of the hose you'd make a great case for your downstream investigation of thermostat and manifolds, but if you get a weak output or takes a while to get anything you'd know your problem was still the pump.  I know the success with the bucket test might lead you to think the pump is fine, but it leads me to think the downstream flow is fine, or at least sufficient for now.

The reason I keep saying to run it on the trailer, not in the water, is you get the whole picture.  Is it drawing water from bucket or hose T?  Yes, from bucket.  Is water flowing out one or both exhaust pipes?  I haven't seen a mention of this.  If it is sucking from the bucket ok, then put your garden hose in the bucket to keep filling it, let the engine run, observe flow out the pipes, check temp as it keeps running at maybe 1000 rpm.  Would tell you more of the story.  Maybe you've done all this, just still trying to understand the flow issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DenDen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 12:21pm
I will try to clarify what we have done.
First of all, when I say that it does not prime, that is only when you first put the boat in the water when all the lines have bled out. That is when I open the valve on that apparatus in the one picture. That hose goes from the pump to the oil cooler. It is clear so you can see when it fills. So each time we do one of these tests, we have to pull the boat out of the water, let it drain and then put it back in.
After the boat has been primed by opening that valve and letting the air out it then stays primed every time you start no problem.
As for testing if there was a blockage at the oil cooler. Yes, we put a clear hose from the one you see in the picture to the t where it goes into each exhaust manifold. Again we had to crack the valve in order to get flow. And when we did this, as soon as we cracked it, the water gushed up no problem. So we hooked it back up through the oil cooler with a clear hose from the oil cooler to the T. Exact same result had to crack the valve to get it to fill. That leads me to believe the oil cooler has nothing to do with it.
I am still at a loss as to why I have to crack that valve to get the initial “ prime” to fill the system. It just seems to need a little extra bit of help to get it going.
After we see the clear line to the T fill, it’s just a matter of feeling the bottom of the manifold get cool, right away as the water flows up through them on the bottom first. And then you can actually feel the water come back down and cool the top. The only other thing I could think of to do would be to put clear hoses from the front of the manifold to the thermostat housing. I don’t think that’s necessary as it’s obvious when the manifold or cooling.
And yes, when we were running the boat last on the bucket. We had the hose in there, filling it up to observe what was going to happen, and we observed water comes out of both exhaust evenly.
I cannot think of anything else to do or check. Obviously something is not right.
I am more than happy to entertain any ideas someone might have.
My thought is they only made this style of manifold and cooling for a couple of years. And I suppose that’s why they changed it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 7:06pm
I think DenDen is pretty happy right about now.

We had a conversation this afternoon about his priming issues and the routing of his suction hose from the hull intake to the pump suction.

The way it was run, when the boat was turned off the line could drain completely when he took it out of the water.

Most CC's of that era with a PCM engine had a loop seal formed between the pump and the suction grate because the line looped up over the top of the transmission cooler then from the cooler it dropped into the bilge and ran up to the pump. Once that line got water in it, it stayed at least partially full all season unless you did something like disconnect the line and drain it.

That makes it a lot easier for the pump to get a prime when you start the engine.

He looped the hose upward over the rear engine mount and now he's got a loop seal.

He ran the boat this afternoon out on the lake. His words were "ran flawlessly, never heated up at all"

He's having technical difficulties trying to post a picture and video, so he asked me to post them.

Here's a picture of the newly arranged hose.

He now knows everything runs good and hopefully his loop seal makes the pump prime a lot easier every time.

Thumbs Up  Thumbs Up  for DenDen for sticking with it.

We'll let him fill in whatever else there is.


PS still working on posting the video  Edit .........the video was really fuzzy, so I didn't post a link.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63 Skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 7:56pm
That's great news!  Nicely done Den for being willing to try stuff and listening to advice, and to Ken for the simple fix.  I've never heard the expression loop seal before, but I get it.  What is new to me is every other boat I've dealt with sucked water easily even from an empty raw water pickup so not sure why this one is harder to prime, maybe just the different style pump.

Ken, have you thought about setting up a 1-900-ASK-KENO line, you could bill by the minute like a psychic. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 9:51pm
Typical CCF group effort  Wink

Let's wait though for Dennis to say it's "fixed" and keeps a prime 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1980SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-12-2023 at 9:53pm
Just learned something new… thanks KENO. Great job as well!
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