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greed comes in many forms, and it varies depending on the age of the individual, but the word greed defined i would imagine means the sensation of not having or the feeling of not ever having enough of something material and the more you get of that material the more it makes the sensation increase of wanting more

Wow, this thread really took off since yesterday afternoon. Lots of good discussion.

phospher,

I noticed you didn't answer my question for a solution. Do you have any solutions to share or just problems?

I'll take a stab at your income question. My guess is that your household income is north of $100K, but south of $250K. I would also venture a guess to say that you are a two income home and you both work for someone else...not self employed. How close am I?

So, you're not happy that politicians haven't stepped up and removed any form of religious practice from all government operations, huh? What is it you feel is wrong with it?

As far as the discussion about the key elements of the constitution...life, libert and the pursuit of happiness...it seems to me that it is pretty straightforward...no interpretation really required.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

It is pretty evident that it is talking about individual rights that government or other individuals aren't supposed to infringe upon. The moment government, especially, infringes on one's individual rights that is being violated. The question then goes to what infringes on people's rights. Forcefully taking earnings from one individual to give to another definitely violates this.

IMO, government has lost sight of what its job is and has become a bloated entity that is draining from producers to provide to consumers. When the consumers become greater than the producers, the system will collapse. Since government produces nothing, it won't be able to save the system on its own.

Personally, I struggle with the amount that is taken from those of us that produce to give to those that consume. I think it is a huge problem that is driving a wedge into our society. I actually get angry many times thinking about how much of my hard earned money is taken from me to give to people that would rather hold their hand out than take care of themselves. It's a personal struggle for me, especially considering I am a Christian and generally a compassionate human being. WWJD, right?

On the health care issue, here's something to ponder. Compare the 40's and 50's to today. Look at incomes, the types of health insurance provided, how people accessed health care, and the costs. Seems to me there were many more positives back then and it's strange the concepts of those days aren't considered as a good solution to the issue today.

Okie Boarder wrote: OverMyHead wrote: Question for the libs. What is the line between being greedy and protecting oneself from being taken advantage of? Seems to me the word greedy is most often used by someone trying to get something for nothing. You could expand on that question and look at how envy applies to the equation, as well. Seems a lot of times that policies we have in our society are driven by envy. How many times have you heard the statement "The rich should pay higher taxes...they can afford it."?

Lets see if they answer the first question first (they wont}. Essentially the rich are a minority and who protects them? Have you ever or will you ever hear a welfare recipeient say no that is enough, give the rich a break and let them make me a job? My question goes to not being a rube and accept being unfairly taken advantage of. That is not greed but it is labeled so by those on the recieving end of the money. In fact isnt expecting others to pay your way when you wont greedy?

Envy is ok. It is how you chose to rectify it that is the problem. Envy makes me work harder, and increase my education in order to get more of what I would like. Others think they should be able to take away from others to get more.

I think protecting ourselves will be a new road to journey, trust is earned? it appears that the trust of the government and "the banks" has been tarnished to a point where you want to take your cash put it in a barrel and bury it in your back yard

I hope this is the last time I am tempted to reply, because I can see that I am not going to get through to anyone. I appreciate all of your points of view, really I do, but they are exactly that. No more, no less. The way many of you come across I would think that you have absolutely no doubt about exactly what the Constitution says, and by extension God, or whatever higher authority you appeal to. Me, on the other hand, I hope that I have made it clear that what what I have written here is my opinion; that is I truly believe it but I realize that it is one of many viewpoints on an issue. Again, many of you state your opinion with little room for negotiation or opposing points of view. Below, I shall try to point out a few objective facts and some of my own beliefs, and you can draw your own conclusions as I am sure you will.

As to not finding the word "community" in the United States Constitution. Dave, you are 100% correct. However, it does begin with the words "We the people." If that doesn't fit the definition of community, then I don't know what does.

As to greed. You can also see the definition for that here. I would say it hinges on "more of something than is needed." By any objective standard having a boat is pure luxury, and more than you need. Is it greedy? Could very well be. I think a poor person would say so. My point is that greed is nebulous, and I think that a very strong ethical argument could be made that if you can afford luxuries such as a boat, you should pay higher taxes to help those with very little.

Andy, first of all, "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is not in the United States Constitution. Second, that phrase could be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Indeed I would say that is is exceedingly vague. Vague enough to allow it to cover a range of behaviors and ideas, many of which you may directly disapprove of, even strongly, but are nonetheless protected by law (which may have been precisely the point). For more on this, read on... Note that Franklin and Jefferson were both less interested in "property" and chose to instead emphasize "happiness." Moreover, I hate to break it to everyone who appeals to the "it worked back then, no reason it can't work now" logic. It is not 1776, or 1787, or 1950, or even 2000. This is the year 2010, and the world is not the same as it was even a decade or two ago. Sorry to break it to you.

I do think the rich should pay higher taxes, exactly because they can afford it. Money to run the government has to come from somewhere. From what I am hearing, many of you would rather it come from those with little to nothing instead of those who could lose large proportions of their income and still maintain a very high standard of living. I am sorry, but this line of thought is absolutely foreign, medieval, and downright selfish to me.

Time and again it seems the basic thesis here is "I don't want my money going to somebody who doesn't deserve it." That is understandable. But what about all those people who need it? What about those good, God-fearing, hard-working people that need food-stamps and medicare, and public housing, and you-name-it just to get by. What about poor people who work as hard, or dare I say it, even harder than you do but still make less than you. I know some of them. Again, hate to break it to you but they do exist. How about the kids they are raising, and the American Dream they are being denied by purposefully being kept in squalor so that you can put a new engine mod in your boat?

This is America. We are not all white, we are not all middle-class and up, we are not all Christians, we are not all straight, we are not all wealthy, we are not all boaters, we are not all men. What we are is a society. One that is trying to be decent, and do the best job we can in this world. If you really believe that doggedly protecting your own personal assets is the best way to go about it, then more power to you. But at least realize that is just one idea about how our society, government, and even world work. Perhaps consider what your life would be like if you were born very poor, or black, or a woman, or in another country, or of another religion, or gay. Hell, think about how different it would be if you had never fallen in love with Correct Crafts! Think about it really hard. Maybe even talk to some of these other people and see how their life is different from yours, and how it is similar. If, after all that, you still believe that everyone who is poor is lazy, who is gay is perverted, who is another religion than yours is going straight to hell in a hand-basket, then by all means hold on to your money and whatever else you want. Good for you.

Me? I'm happy to spread my wealth.

Back off Boosh! Who said everyone, and why do you feel that your opinion is worth more than the next guy's? Your post is pushing arrogant.

When facts are ignored, rationalized away, or just plain twisted into something they aren't; the only solution is more vaginal soothing cream.

I have to take my bloodpressure meds now.

Im glad the Marines dont think like that, no you get, no you get em, im not getting shot, there is a difference between giving your money away and taking care of our own, there is a small percentage in the country that will take the money and run and get drunk, if not they will rob a store and kill somebody, but there also a percentage that do need help in a time of need, the problem is that when it hits you at home and you have no other avenues thats when you realize

My Dad said used to say "use all you want but don't waste any" and that applyed to lights, food, gas, well everything. The goverment could use my Dads advice.

eric lavine wrote: Im glad the Marines dont think like that, no you get, no you get em, im not getting shot, there is a difference between giving your money away and taking care of our own, there is a small percentage in the country that will take the money and run and get drunk, if not they will rob a store and kill somebody, but there also a percentage that do need help in a time of need, the problem is that when it hits you at home and you have no other avenues thats when you realize

It is a shame many of the military votes (away on duty)are not even being counted during this election. The states were required to send the absentee ballots with enough time to get them back before the election and they opted to not bother.

If you don't mind answering, what do you both do?

Ok I am out of my self imposed time out. I was in the middle of a personal life perfect storm when I posted in response to Phils somewhat arrogent "I am more more charitable than thou" post the other day and got off on am angry tangent.
A little background, I am currently selling my little pursuit of happiness. I bought a cabin in 1996 where I lived with my son after a divorce. It is two doors down from a very good friend. I completely remodeled the place and made it quite special. My plan was to retire there. After my re-marriage things got tough and we rented it out. We were blessed with a permanet renter who kept it up better than I had. He recently met someone and needed a bigger place. Meanwhile being in construction things have become even tougher for me. I have been working anyware from 12 to 40 hours a week for about a year now, and doing handyman work to make ends meet. I also just completed a college degree and racked up $27,000 in student loans,. Add in$ 30,000 in medical co-pays in the last 5 years of which some we have paid out of pocket,the rest are on a home equity line of credit, and the only right decision was to sell the cabin, my American dream, we close Wednesday and it is still not sitting well. I am looking for a new job but even with a 3.91 GPA I cant seem to get an interview. We have also had many discussions about whether the boat makes sense but I just cannot let everything go. I am making alot of hard choices, the cabin is "above water" but we will end up with very little in pocket once our debt is paid. Still this is my responsibility, I am just feeling like a looser that I have put myself into this place. At least I am not on the government payroll, I am doing everything I can to be self sufficiant. I am also fighting with an 18 y/o who could who seems to delight in being everything I am against. He takes little responsibility and expects everyone to just give him what he wants. As if this is not frustrated enough the new wife and the practice wife have made it a hobby to second guess everything I do concerning him. Then along comes Phil with a rant about it being greedy to complain about taxes. That is why I blew a gasket the other day. I have been told that over 60 percent of the federal budget is entitlements. That means when I look at my witholdings, 60% of them are going to others who are not exercising the personal responsibility that I am right now. I know some physically can't and they are not the ones I am complaining about. What does bug me is that I have no choice, Phil and his buddies want to save the world and thats fine if they choose to use their money that way, But they vote for people that force all of us to pay for their dream, their pursuit of happiness, and as I am making hard choices I cannot even consider cutting back on that 60% of my federal witholdings that are going to others. Instead I cut back on my family, and my church, and doinations to other worthy organizations.

Anyway, as I was feeling a little like an angy a$$ over my post about greed and those on welfare, I went to church, I again was feeling low. I typically drop a 20 in the basket most Sundays (far from tything but it has been what I can do lately), but had nothing to give this week (I will make it up after the cabin closes). So it is missions week at church and the sermon is about giving, those in need, GREED, and I am remebering my earlier rant and thinking "God, I already am feeling bad about this, do you still have to take me to task?", So I am squirming in my seat till the end of the service, trying to adjust my attitude, finally the sermon ends with a story about the pastors converstion with a man he described as a very vocal fiscal conservative going on about how taxes are to high. I am sitting expecting to take one last blow to the jaw that will put me on the mat, when the story ends with the the guy who wants lower taxes saying If only my taxes were lower I could give more to the poor. and the Pastor says, "I have never heard anyone say that before." Then I remebered my multiple posts similar to this.

OverMyHead wrote:    Of course I can give charitably which gives me happiness, but not if the money is confiscated before I can do so.

God straightened me out a bit, but he also had my back.

This is why I believe in God. This stuff does not just happen by coincidence.

Thanks Bruce, Its hard to feel to bad when your giggling.

Hay Dave,
None here has walked in your shoes and I for one think your a good MAN.

life is a short window, what you do inside that window is what counts...i dont want to compare apples to apples but it has been tough, im a business owner, people always look to me and say "hey you got money, you can buy, you can afford it" well I tried telling that to the tow truck driver one night when he showed up 6 months ago to claim my truck, a little embarassing in my neighborhood. We had a 7 figure offer on this place which we passed on maybe because a bit of greed and now i cant give it away....do i cry at night, nah, im just happy for what i got, material items are replaceable, plus when you get home at night the smile on the kids faces are worth a million bucks