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Weeding the Pumpkin patch

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eric lavine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-02-2008 at 12:47pm
Greg, i brought the foam removal back up in the off topic section and on the 4th page is a pic to where the stringers tie in, it does have alot of structural shots in the thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-03-2008 at 9:15pm
I've seen pics and vids of many of you...suspiciously, I've only seen Eric's hands?!!? LOL
The beginning of the learning curve.


This is after a good bit of time with better meathods. There is a lot of resin used in some areas.


Should I stress over air pockets in the glass used to lay up the secondary stringers?


I was hoping the mains would be solid and dry. I caught my heel on the pylon base and turned into this...only a split second, but I found the butta?!!?


Last but not least, the ply under the air box is wet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hasbeenskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 9:34am
Buffalo BFN!
You have my most humble apologies about not responding to your earlier request for crossing the street. I have not been monitoring the maintenance section lately. My tool of choice as you know is an angle grinder with a cutting blade(for steel). It slices glass. but doesnt like wood. Sorry again for the neglect. According to the pictures above it looks like you have got it down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 9:52am
Thanks BJ and no worries! You're one the guys I was hoping to hear from since I've been following some of your advice and going back to your pics. I did end up with a grinder and bought several types of blades. The cutoff tool in the pic works for tight spots but is terribly slow.

What do yall think about those air pockets? Leave them or cut 'em out(next to last pic)?
Thanks again all and I now know why the Doc titled his thread "Boat Dr. vs. 64 American Skier"?!!? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 10:12am
Greg, i have a face for radio and for computers, lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 2:29pm
Is this where you stopped? Have any more pics? Has anyone removed the air box? The foremost bulkhead is right under the airbox, and it was only glassed halfway up. I hate to cut into that...I hate leaving wet wood just a bit more?!!?
Originally posted by hasbeenskier hasbeenskier wrote:



Here's a pic from last night, since I've cut out the triangle to the left of the airbox to find the last of the wet wood. That bulkhead is 6-8" forward of the bottom left corner of the box and may be near impossible to reglass without cutting the box out?!!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 2:54pm
Maybe this will help. Anyone know anything about the 2 plywood squares hanging on the lift ring hardware?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 3:10pm
Greg, I think the plywood was originally glued to the underside of the deck. It keeps the rod from chewing up the deck just incase of some side loading on the lifting ring.

Any real large voids (air) that are in the glass you can punch some holes in so when you put the first coat of epoxy on, some will get in the void. Don't worry about every small void. It looks like they are in the last layer that was put in over the stringers.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 3:39pm
Greg, yes that is where i stopped, your in the rake of the keel and anymore farther is dry, i dug all the foam out and re-fitted all the new tubing, your doing exactly as i did, and you see where the mains end and the fronts start, have you thought about re-thinking the foam thing? if anything mark your sides on the gunnels and grind them flat so you can corner your glass, grind every area where you think you are going to glass with at least 36 grit so the new bites in, you may want to re-think the 1/2 ply and go up to 3/4,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 3:44pm
the foam has no bearing on structure, anything without grain in will snap in half, if foam was for structural it would have some type of stranding in it to make it structural, if you are worried about structure add a couple more secondaries for floor support, double coat every piece of would to try to waterproof especially the edges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 4:33pm
Cut my airbox out of my 83 SN last night, pete is correct the plywood was originally attached to the deck. My boat had just enough water along the foam along the keel that I had to go all the way and the water went all the way but the SN doesn't have a bulkhead where the barefoot does at that spot so your front is probably more self contained. I agree with pete on the air voids as well, they would not have been in the actual hull layup they were from the stringer glassing in process and they are not an issue. However, I usually go pretty deep into the hulls along where I am going to bed the new stringers so I get the new ones where the old ones would have been with a good amount of bedding in between.

The hardest part of the whole operation when using encased wood is planning out the thickness of the encasement laminations and not growing the hieight and width from the original stringers. If you use exact size replacement stringers they end up heigher and with not enough space between them, then you end up grinding off your fiberglass that you encased the wood with. Its an art.


My next step is to make a cad model of my new stringer and floor design and send the dwg files off to coosa and have them quote the cut pieces vs. and equivilent amount of 4x8 sheets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 9:42pm
What does the box look like inside? What is its purpose? I guess I'll find out 'cause it's gonna have to come out in order to fix the front bulkhead. Did you cut it out as a unit or are you going to rebuild it?

And you're way ahead of my curve on the composites...maybe my next boat. Roughly how much is a 4x8 of coosa?

I'm still planning to go back with fir. I found a source for douglas fir but haven't seen it yet. As I pick this beast apart I see where the water is and why, so I'm thinking of leaving channels as I've seen in other posts and being super careful of how everything gets reglassed.

Eric, I will be using 3/4" ply for the bulkheads but was thinking of using 1/2" for the floor with glass over it...maybe even 3/8" for the floor. You almost have me talked out of refoaming and this would affect the floor thickness?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Greg, I think the plywood was originally glued to the underside of the deck. It keeps the rod from chewing up the deck just incase of some side loading on the lifting ring.

Any real large voids (air) that are in the glass you can punch some holes in so when you put the first coat of epoxy on, some will get in the void. Don't worry about every small void. It looks like they are in the last layer that was put in over the stringers.

They are in the last layer and thanks as always!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 9:56pm
Coosa prices depend on the type and density. Bluewater and Nautical are the types, the bluewater has a layer of woven roving near the top and bottom and continous strand througout the rest, nautical is just continuous strand. Bluewater 20 is about 100 for a half inch sheet, bluewater 26 is about 140, nautical is not enough cheaper to warrant losing the woven roving. I am pretty sure I am going to replace all stringers with 12 bluewater 26 (3 layers for the mains), add additonal bulkheads about every 12 inches perpendicular to the stringers with 1/2 inch bluewater 20 and make the floor out of 1/2 inch bluewater 20 in the back and bluewater upfront where the seats screw in. Everything will have channels for water removal, and no foam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-04-2008 at 10:02pm
Sorry I cut the airbox out generally as a unit but its trash I will rebuild something that performs the same function... but with no foam you dont need the dryer hoses below the floor just appropriate holes in the bulkheads. Will most likely reuse the wiring/cable tubing though. I have a whole bunch of things that need to go under my bow (perfect pass, 3 amps, stereo head unit, power buss, subwoofer and a nitrous bottle) and havent exactly devised how yet. I am also hoping I can build a battery box that will hold my two optimas side by side so I can reclaim my cooler space. Lots of work and not much winter left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 9:02am
Originally posted by JoeinNY JoeinNY wrote:

I have a whole bunch of things that need to go under my bow (perfect pass, 3 amps, stereo head unit, power buss, subwoofer and a nitrous bottle) and havent exactly devised how yet.

Wow, that's quite a list...but it looks like the disco snack bar didn't make the cut?!!?

Lots more good info to chew on, and I'd like to see some pics as you get into the coosa. Are you going to start a thread?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 9:19am
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

if anything mark your sides on the gunnels and grind them flat so you can corner your glass, grind every area where you think you are going to glass with at least 36 grit so the new bites in,

I was planning to leave the lip around the edge from the old floor since it isn't separated. My intention(correct me if I'm out in left field) was to build the secondary stringers up to that lip and then drill small holes in the lip all around the perimeter for new resin to harden into as the floor gets reglassed.

And I found some 16 grit cutting discs. They're called 'turbo cut discs' by pearl abrassive co., and they really hog out some material. I think they are a fairly new product at my big box because they weren't merchandised into the shelving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 9:45am
really no need for screws into the sides, when your ready do a test sample with the glass and you'll realize how strong it is,
rebuilding is a loose term so how ever you end up doing it, that it will be fine, it will be stronger and more waterproof than when it left the factory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 10:05am
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

really no need for screws into the sides

No screws Eric, I should've been more clear. What I meant is just drilling the holes for new glass and resin to harden into. I'm trying to get a mechanical bond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 10:51am
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

really no need for screws into the sides

No screws Eric, I should've been more clear. What I meant is just drilling the holes for new glass and resin to harden into. I'm trying to get a mechanical bond.


Greg, The epoxy will bond to the old-don't worry. The holes are overkill. I did mention holes for a mechanical bond in a past thread but that was on a plastic seat base which is hard to bond to.

Carefull with that 16 grit. It will go through the bottom! Reminds me of a friend who rented a floor sander to refinish his hardwood floors. He ended up having to get a new floor!!!


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Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Carefull with that 16 grit. It will go through the bottom! Reminds me of a friend who rented a floor sander to refinish his hardwood floors. He ended up having to get a new floor!!!

Reminds me of digging into an oak tread with a belt sander on a glued up curved straircase back when I was 15...that was a long day! I'll be careful. I'm grinding down until the wood is just gone. Now I have to deal with the air box and then I'll do 1 main at a time and hopefully be headed downhill!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 12:02pm
make sure you need to remve the airbox because it is a troublesom area, i know its not rotted up that high, its mostly glass up there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by eric lavine eric lavine wrote:

make sure you need to remve the airbox because it is a troublesom area, i know its not rotted up that high, its mostly glass up there.

Check out the last pic with the light hanging in it. It's hard to see, but that foremost bulkhead is under the air box and it is wet and discolored. I don't want to mess with it either, but...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 12:14pm
The next to last pic shows better depth. The bulkhead I'm talking about is about 8" behind the foam and the front of the air box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 1:14pm
While the lip of the floor is nice to have to set depth and a real itchy mess to grind off, I would consider removing it. You can make a very strong joint with a good fillet at the floor wall intersection, the scenarios are not as good for the joint with a lip left behind. I sometimes find I can pull off most of the lip if I get under it and that gets me down to the side of the hull without too much grinding.

I have a few pictures of the tear out but material leadtime and design time will have me working on the engine for a while hopefully I will get it all up eventually.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-05-2008 at 9:20pm
I havent tried a roto zip on glass but i have found a great way to stop the itch .... i use 3 teen agers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2008 at 1:09am
Sure does look like fun Greg.

Not.

But I am sure it will be great when its done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BuffaloBFN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2008 at 8:38am
I didn't quite get 2 hours out of a new dewalt grinder...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2008 at 10:08am
Originally posted by BuffaloBFN BuffaloBFN wrote:

I didn't quite get 2 hours out of a new dewalt grinder...


Gears or motor? It pays to go all the way with tools. Greg, try a Milwaukee. With that 16 grit wheel, you are doing some HD hogging!!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-06-2008 at 10:14am
I think you jinxed me cause my 1/2 dewalt bit the bullet yesterdy
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