You didn build that ! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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They determined it was in fact better to be unemployed than employed at a level where they were working 40 hours a week but thier kids would be going hungry, that is thier right. They will now be able to collect the unemployment they have paid into, while spending thier time looking for or retraining for a new job.
They had already accepted pay cuts.. they were not making a lot of money, if the management/owners couldnt make money with those brands, that distribution network, and that labor structure then they shouldnt be in business and their investment should be wiped out and the assets sold off to pay the creditors. Quite a few of those employees will end up working for the new owners, and likely at a better rate than what they were being offered. |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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Isn't it the employers that pay the unemployment tax?
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Overall, there are no job loses from Hostess' demise.
Consumers will not give up eating, the net sales of food will not decline due to the mis-management of Hostess Brands. Business is displaced to efficient modern companies who are able to make the food we desire profitably. You do the same thing as the Hostess employees, Dave. When you bid on a floor job you establish a minimum price for the job. Less than that minimum price and you will not do the work. Why would you expect other s to live under different rules of employment? I never ate Hostess snacks (Twinkies or Cupcakes) or Wonder Bread, but I did buy a few of their products. I have found suitable replacements for all of the Hostess brands I can no longer buy. I found Rosens Rye, and I prefer it over the Beefsteak Rye (Hostess) that I bought simply because I always bought it, not because it was somehow "special" and more delicious. Turano Bakery, a large local bakery, makes some bread that I love and I now buy that and some breads made by my local (Ma & PA) bakery. Interstate Brands (Hostess) demise should be looked on as the inevitable evolution of business to fulfill the needs and desires of consumers. I welcome change. This is a demonstration of opportunity in action. The jobs that were "lost" are merely displaced to other, better run, companies. The change in the economy occurs at an ever accelerating rate. You must stay ahead of the curve and not lament the change to what you believe to be static. That brings me to an example. I have nearly doubled my money on my investment in Solar City (SCTY) in 90 days. How is your investment in that horses and bayonets firm going for you? And as for the Volt, my neighbor loves his, he uses it every day and fills up every four to six weeks. I would buy one too, but my Saturn Ion, with 162,000 on the clock (33 MPG average) shows no sign of needing to be replaced. There is an alternative to your bitchin and moanin about the price of fuel, and the Volt and Ford's C-max are two of the answers. |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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John, there's something like 1300 people that worked at the Hostess plant 3 towns away from me that are very much suffering a job loss. I think most of them, (at least those in the bakers union) are delusional in thinking they're going to get hired back if the plant re opens. The guys you got to feel bad for are the Teamsters whose union did not strike and they lost their jobs. Some of those guys were in their late fifties with only a year or two to go to retire, and now they're screwed as they can't get a union job to finish off their time.
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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You made my point, the jobs were just displaced. Turano, a local bakery that employed just over 200 in the 90's now employs 1,831. We got your jobs! Tell the workers we have their jobs in Chicago. New Plant Addition to old plant |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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bhectus
Platinum Member Joined: July-04-2010 Location: Gator Country! Status: Offline Points: 1809 |
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So John and Joe, if I am understanding your posts correctly ,then the same should have been done with GM then correct? That's what SHOULD have happened but the govt stepped in and intervened. Why does the govt get to decide who should receive help and who shouldn't? They help GM but not my friend's business. They help Sally Mae and Freddy Mac but not Hostess. There doesn't seem to be any definitive boundaries.
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bhectus
Platinum Member Joined: July-04-2010 Location: Gator Country! Status: Offline Points: 1809 |
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This is where you are incorrect sir. Employers pay in for unemployment. I don't see anywhere on my paycheck where I pay for it. Yes, the employees of Hostess had a right to give up and quit, but they don't have a "right" to claim unemployment. That is a priveledge and one that is so rediculously taken advantage of that it makes me want to vomit all over my keyboard right now just thinking about it. Random drug testing for anyone on food stamps and unemployement should be standard. If one claims it is an invasion of their privacy, then get a job. |
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'02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold
'87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
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Riley
Grand Poobah Joined: January-19-2004 Location: Portland, ME Status: Offline Points: 7954 |
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Until the next economic meltdown... Unfortunately, the common thread across the country is for local brands to be bought up and nationalized. Then they get relocated and leveraged to the point where they fail. Our "Hostess" plant was originally JJ Nissan which was around for decades in Portland. They still would be if the parent to Hostess didn't buy them. We're all losing our local brands and the jobs that go with them. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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And our local family owned bakery employed the displaced workers who lost their jobs due to the greed and Mismanagement of Hostess. Its what makes the business go round.
It is unfortunate for some of you that you are unhappy with the United States, and feel that my country is incapable of making good decisions. May I suggest you explore other countries where policy / laws support your personal opinions on what is best for the citizens. I am, for them most part, pleased with this country and proud to be a citizen. I support our government and the programs that protect our most volnerable citizens, and judging by the results of our most recent election, most citizens do. At their best, politicians reflect and are responsive to the opinions of those they represent. The current issues on social programs and gun control are examples of this. According to polls citizens want to see changes in gun laws and to continue with the benefit programs now in place, programs they have paid into and have every right to expect. A statesman should feel obligated to deliver. It is tough to be on the losing side of an issue, but inevitably, almost half find themselves there with each issue decided. I tire of reading posts demonstrating the hypocrisy of those collecting be edits for everything from Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Food Stamps, and a host of other state and federal programs, and then criticizing those programs that have sustained them through difficult times. I cannot cure your bitterness and dis- satisfaction with the American way of life, that is up to you. Taking the little that less fortunate citizens have will not elevate you to a position of Devine bliss. I suggest volunteering to help others. Only when you have compassion for others will you find any real happiness. I find it distasteful that many on this site have so much more than the vast majority will ever know, yet they criticize others for finding joy from a Snickers Bar paid for by the programs available to them. When you carefully choose the CNC propeller of your choice, the perfect port matched intake, or that flow bench tested 4V to pull you more perfectly across the water on skiless feet, remember that person who had to decide what they would have to give up for the one luxury this week, a Snickers Bar. I am a Meals on Wheels volunteer and I deliver meals to people unable to care for themselves or afford enough food to eat. most are just holding on to their apartment by a thread. I am reminded of the goodness of some and the selfishness of others each time I drive a route. Other than other police officers and firemen, I have yet to see anyone of substantial means become involved in these programs. Most of the volunteers are elderly and of limited means themselves. Lose the bitterness and volunteer to help others. There must be some kind of karma in the world, because helping others gives me the same happiness as a day on the water. I realize many of you donate your money or time to others and I respect that. I am certainly less involved than many of you and I am not trying to place myself on a pedestal, as I certainly am really a pretty average person and unworthy of anyone thinking otherwise. I do believe that because of my life experiences I am personally exposed to more people who are suffering and have no options other than the programs they depend on. OK, you can take my soapbox away now! |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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bhectus
Platinum Member Joined: July-04-2010 Location: Gator Country! Status: Offline Points: 1809 |
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John, I applaud you for your time that you volunteer to help others not so fortunate. I don't do near as much as I could or should. But how dare you suggest that because I (or others like me) am a successful middle-class worker that I put myself on a pedestal or take away from the less fortunate. When I drive through the less desirable neighborhoods in my city and see people that live in government subsidized housing driving Escalades and checking out at the supermarket opening their Coach purse and pulling out food stamps, yes i have a ***************g problem with that. It has become more the norm than the exception and people like you that continue to believe that there is not a real problem with our governement "handouts" and the way they are being handed out are simply skating through life with blinders on. When I hear some thug on the radio flaunting to the DJ that he's living high on the hog eating steak on the state, yes I have a ***************g problem with that. Especially when I have been working 55-65 hours a week since I graduated college to be the halfway successful person that I am. I have made difficult decisions in life and sacrificed things (like selling a $18k boat for a $5k boat so I could be closer to being debt free) so that I could be a better provider for my family. It sure is troublesome to me to know that the rewards and personal gains from working hard are becoming more and more difficult to see. I've seen it at my own company where things have gone from being razzed by your fellow associates for going home at 5:15pm and being called a "part-timer" to now being one of the only guys left after 5pm still grinding it out. The new youth want a paycheck. I want a career and success. And I'm about to get it and it's been 13 years in the making at the same company because I know success isn't made overnight and you have to earn it. Real emphasis on the "earning" part. Because over 50% of the bloodsucking maggots on government assistance programs haven't earned $h!t and this country is handing out money like it grows on trees. So please excuse me if this came out wrong but I think I have a "right" to be upset that a lot of my hard earned money that gets taxed gets "given" to some a-hole that hasn't earned it. I did.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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GM was a special case, there was no one interested in buying it… it would have hurt both the economy, ford, and national security to let it fail. The government got in, got it done, and is getting out…. They didn’t let let someone else get rich off it while they took all the risk.. what was the alternative that wouldn’t have cost us all money and many of us our jobs? You think the stock market would be at 14000 today without that bailout? Unemployment below 10%?
Unemployment is a limited benefit given to those who have in fact worked on the books and are seeking work actively (although some states do better than others about enforcing the seeking work thing). It is semantics from an economics standpoint whether it is employer paid to the government or employer paid to the employee and then paid to the government, it is payment earned by the employee through their labor from the employer. Ability to collect benefits such as disability or unemployment are factored into ones choice to work and at what wage. Without those benefits you would see a lot more work done “off the books” than you see now. You can drug test all you want, it is nothing anyone really cares too much about that conservatives like to talk about so they can convince people that someone else is the cause of their problems. Sure every time it is done it costs more to do the tests than it saves by kicking people out but if that is what it takes to make people shut about about it lets do it. There are a lot of factors involved in local companies being gobbled up into conglomerates which then eventually fail.. lack of regulation is one. The popularization of the 401k and the amount of money that has thrown into wall street is another. Taxing capital gains at a rate much lower than income has had a huge effect as well. It is a Ponzi scheme and it always ends badly because you cant continue to borrow and grow, borrow and grow forever. The crooks always get their money out at the right time and joe schmoe stockholder takes the hit after his “guy” steers him to that stock just as he is steering his big investors out. It ought to be against the law, and sometimes it is but for some reason we are supposed to fear the elected government regulating business and trust the “Market” to do the right thing… and then when we see it doesn’t we are blaming the workers? I am a little fired up about this today.. as they are shutting down the largest employer in my hometown.. my previous employer. My former friends and employees found out they have about 18 months to get themselves something else. They just bought another company and are moving this production to one of their plants down in Tennessee. Of course people are going to blame that on union wages or high taxes or whatever. But I have seen the numbers and the truth is that it was criminally bad marketing, and management inept enough to listen to them. They didn’t listen to me, hence former employer. The acquisition and move buys them some time and an excuse. Of course it costs the shareholders a ton of money and has no chance of being successful.. they cant manage the company they have now… but all the guys who put together the deal will be long gone by the time they run that company into the ground. |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Brett, You misunderstand several things about my post.
First, I respect you for working hard and having good ethics. I don't believe you put yourself on a pedestal. If your post is true, I believe you are proud citizen. I also tried to make it clear that I am pretty average and deserve no applause for the small the things I do. Honestly, there is a selfish motivation for doing it, I t makes ME happy. Enough on that. That being said, I believe if you got out of your car and went into the "less desirable" neighborhoods you would find that your pre-concieved notions about the social structure in public housing do not reflect reality. I spent a lot of time in public housing during my career, not only UC, but responding to calls during my days in patrol. My career ended working an overtime detail at night on a bicycle in an area of public housing. First off, most of the people in these housing programs are good people, just like you and me, but in bad circumstances. Many are unmarried and have children they care for. Some of these unmarried mothers are that way because they were raped in their neighborhood. The vast majority of them work, and they pay to go to work each day, whether in their car, or on public transportation. I find it hard to accept that a mother would have to tell her child that there is nothing to eat this week because she smoked a little weed, something I'm sure you would find that for some here (not me however) goes with a day aboard a Correct Craft, barefooting and blasting the subs and tower speakers. When you see a tricked out "Bubble" or Escalade, or something with 20s you can pretty much be sure they are not living on government programs. Normally those cars belong to the local gang members who demonstrate their gang status with their car. I am not familiar with Florida license plates, but here in Illinois it is pretty easy to tell what the gang affiliation is by the Escalade (or other car) license plates. Prevent Violence plates are common among the Gangster Disciples because they are blue and black. The Vice Lords use the Environmental plates because they are red with black on them. They believe it is good business to extort what little money and anything else they can get from residents forced to live in these complexes. They fund their exploits in ways that most people who don't spend time in the complexes never see. Some of the popular methods are charging residents $5 to $10 "safe passage" to keep their teeth in their mouths in the stairwells and parking lots. They force residents to stash drugs in their apartments and cars so their own cars are not subject to seizure by the police on drug charges. They intimidate the children of those who will not go along and dole out beatings as necessary. These gang members force residents to drive them to transport drugs, commit thefts, and at times, force residents to purchase guns for the gangs, since those with felony convictions cannot legally purchase guns in most jurisdictions. If you ever check Feebay you will find that you can purchase a "authentic" Coach purse for under $10. I would like to suggest a book for those who don't care to walk into your local public housing complex and have coffee with the good citizens and gang members. It is a big step in understanding the culture. I find it to accurately portray life in "the projects" based on my experiences. Gang Leader for a Day: A Rogue Sociologist Takes to the Streets By Sudhir Venkatesh Gang Leader For A Day |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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bhectus
Platinum Member Joined: July-04-2010 Location: Gator Country! Status: Offline Points: 1809 |
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John, I will respectfully disagree with you. I live in a border neighborhood to a "less desirable" area and I see the things I referred to and hear people flaunt the fact that they are exploiting our govt benefits all the time. Heck, my own next door neighbor who self-admittedly just this weekend told me for the first time how he was a convicted felon (1st degree murder charge & spent 9 yrs in prison) and living with his parents and collecting unemployment benefits. When he found out my daughter was blind in her right eye he "offered" to help me get started on how to file for her benefits. I politely said no thank you. More and more people are figuring out how to make the system work for them.
John F. Kennedy once said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Our society has abandoned this philosophy and it saddens me greatly. |
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'02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold
'87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
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boat dr
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peter1234
Grand Poobah Joined: February-03-2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2756 |
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I agree with both sides of this part of the discussion, i spend a good part of my time working for inner city property managers I would have to say that in these disgustingly dirty apartments with the token pit bull piles of clothes everywhere , the vast majority of these grubs sucking off the system are like fleas on our country. on the other hand i also work in rent adjusted projects where you find 3 generations of (mostly women) the grandmother keeps the apartment clean the mothers are working and believe it or not going to school, it is apparent that they want a better life. they stay for yrs sometimes and are at least trying the best they can with what they have. I was in one a week or so ago, the son goes to the local community college and the mom and dad are going to a local school for english classes. Makes me believe in things a little better seeing the other side of it all
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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john b
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Brett and Billy,
I know there is fraud, but it is still true that the vast majority of people receiving benefits need and have earned them. We all have a responsibility to report any abuses we observe. I believe the standards to qualify for most programs are clear and fair. Maybe the answer is to hire more people to screen the applications and more investigators. As far as your neighbor is concerned, Brett, would you hire the guy? Your neighbor has very few options in a market teaming with qualified applicants without a murder conviction for every available job. At an average cost of $45,000 per year to incarcerate a person that cost is a necessary one to place him back into society. With no means of support and no prospects for employment how do you expect him to eat and live. There is a high rate of recidivism among Xs because of this. I don't know of anyone who will starve or freeze to death willingly. Next thing you know you will be reporting a crime at your house, hopeful not a violent one. You quote one line from a great speech, but how long has it been since you read the speech in it's entirety? I believe this speech is in the public domain so I posted it. Vice-president Johnson, Mr Speaker, Mr Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice-president Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens: We observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom - symbolising an end, as well as a beginning - signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three-quarters ago. The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe - the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God. We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans - born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage, and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world. Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of liberty. This much we pledge - and more. To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do - for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder. To those new states whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom - and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside. To those people in the huts and villages of half the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required - not because the communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. [/B To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge: to convert our good words into good deeds, in a new alliance for progress, to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbours know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house. To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support - to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective, to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak, and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run. Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction. We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed. But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course - both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war. So let us begin anew - remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate. Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belabouring those problems which divide us. Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms, and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations. Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce. Let both sides unite to heed, in all corners of the earth, the command of Isaiah - to "undo the heavy burdens, and [to] let the oppressed go free." And, if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavour - not a new balance of power, but a new world of law - where the strong are just, and the weak secure, and the peace preserved. All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin. In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe. Now the trumpet summons us again - not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are; but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation", a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself. Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, north and south, east and west, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort? In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility - I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it. And the glow from that fire can truly light the world. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what, together, we can do for the freedom of man. Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us here the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth, God's work must truly be our own.] |
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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boat dr
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Was that from a speech by Jessie Jr. ???? |
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john b
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Jr. will. E preaching to his cellies!
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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bhectus
Platinum Member Joined: July-04-2010 Location: Gator Country! Status: Offline Points: 1809 |
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Absolutely not. If it was up to me he would not be breathing our free air. Life is full of choices, and you control your own destiny. But that's en entirely different discussion. As far as my and my families safety....My wife and I are both CCW holders with extensive firearm training, and also have a German Shepherd on guard duty at all times. Used to have a 100lb Doberman. Both houses on either side of me have been burglarized over the last 10 years but mine has not. A big bad dog is a pretty good deterrent. John, I'm sure you're a good guy and I wouldn't mind sharing some stories of boats, beers and women some day. I guess we'll just have to disagree about our political ideals. Not saying it makes you a bad person. I will say I'm very surprised at your societal outlook with your criminal law backround though. I am friends with quite a few in local law enforcement from both NJ and here in FL(hockey and cycling buddies) and they have very different perspectives. |
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'02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold
'87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
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john b
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I like both hockey and cycling. Hockey is the official past time of LE guys. Let's all make a toast to the Chicago Blackhawks!
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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boat dr
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Bret, you are a noble man.....
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OverMyHead
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So lets recap from yesterday.
Concerning GM "They were wiped out. In what world should the government take on all the liabilities to the employees then sell the resources (designs, plants, tools, dealer network etc) to private equity for pennies on the dollar so they can sell it off in pieces and make 500% while destroying the American manufacturing sector- they would be getting paid simply for being rich, not for building, not for taking a risk, but for destroying something it took a century to build up. Instead the government (us) kept it together greatly increased the value and is now selling stock off in chunks at a reasonable market driven price what could be more fair than that?" and Hostess "they were not making a lot of money, if the management/owners couldnt make money with those brands, that distribution network, and that labor structure then they shouldnt be in business and their investment should be wiped out and the assets sold off to pay the creditors. Quite a few of those employees will end up working for the new owners, and likely at a better rate than what they were being offered." and concerning labor "A free market fundamentally depends on the worker actively seeking to maximize thier return on their labor.", but business in a free market is supposed to fundamentally ignore actively seeking to maximize their return on their labor and make sure they pay a livable wage. I guess I need to re-read my big book of Democrat double standards for dummies. The more I learn the more confusing it becomes. Also Unemployment is not a benefit we pay into, it is insurance. The more it is used, the more it costs all of us and the bigger drag it becomes on the economy. |
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For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats.
1987 Ski Nautique |
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john b
Grand Poobah Joined: July-06-2011 Location: lake Sweeny Status: Offline Points: 3241 |
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Precisely! The threshold for stepping in should be the point where it is more expensive to the economy to pay the benefits for the people displaced by the loss of the corporation and supporting manufacturing companies than it is to preserve it. GMs demise may also have dragged Ford with it, since many of the supporting manufacturers that Ford relies on would not have survived on Ford business alone. If that had occurred we would have lost the capacity to manufacture autos in this country, along with the contribution they make to the balance of trade from foreign sales and manufacturing. You and I would have been forced to send our hard earned money for the second biggest purchase most people make to Korea, Japan, Germany, or some other foreign country. Worse than that, I would have no choice but to drive an appliance from Toyota, or a Lexus, the cure for insomnia.
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1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox"
If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Who said that? I said if they maximized thier short term return by promising future benefits instead of higher salarys to begin with then didnt invest or save to be able to provide those benefits in the future then they deserve to fail and not be bailed out. You look to hold leadership harmless for poor leadership, and the investors harmless for poor investment, but then hold the laborers responsible for not seeing in advance that the leaders and investors would destroy the company by how they were leading and investing? Not only is it rediculous, but even if the laborers were omnisicent and decided to take less pay for the future good of the enterprise there is no doubt in my mind that the excess profit would still have been squandered in even bigger management bonuses and dividends and the end result would have been the same. you might want to skip rereading your double standard propganda book.. you have that down pat.. |
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bhectus
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[QUOTE=JoeinNY]
You Democrats look to hold Obama harmless for poor leadership, and the people who voted for him harmless for poor judgement, but then hold the Republicans responsible for not seeing in advance that the president would destroy the country by how he was leading and spending? Not only is it rediculous, but even if the independents were omnisicent and decided to take a gamble and vote for the future good of the country by voting republican there is no doubt in my mind that the country would still have been squandered because Obama made so many empty promises and you all fell for it. QUOTE] there, i fixed it. |
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'02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold
'87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
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Riley
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Anyone see that video of Biden telling someone to buy a shot gun to defend their home? Obama put Biden in charge of gun control and he's giving lame advice that is incredablyly stupid and irresponsible. And he gets a complete free ride from the press and all the Obama followers. I do not understand the blind loyalty this administration gets from so many people, especially educated people.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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cute -not really anything to do with what I said and misses the more obvious parrallel of government and taxpayers
Certainly not as funny as going back a few dozen pages on this thread and rereading all the predictions about what would happen by now if Obama was reelected. Just try and turn off the talk radio and live in the world of facts every now and then guys and maybe the republican party can get someone to run for office that isnt a complete tool. |
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bhectus
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Aww lighten up Joe, you know I was just playing around. xoxo |
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'02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold
'87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
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JoeinNY
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The lack of any reasonable choice put up from the other side? |
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peter1234
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Bruce I think he watched too many elmer fudd cartoons. he could have at least recommended a pump shotgun |
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former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go
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