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ZDDP Expermient from Blackstone Labs

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    Posted: November-24-2010 at 2:04pm
<STRIKE>INTERESTING!</STRIKE> Fixed: Not really interesting apparently:

ZDDP Experiment
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 2:18pm
I'm not really all that jazzed about their experiment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 2:33pm
I'm not too excited about his report ether!

1. He did not inspect the cam before nor after the test.
2. A engine in a automotive application does not see the loading that a marine engine does.
3. The life cycle of a aircraft engine is short - overhauls are frequent.

I have seen first hand two cams out of marine engines where damage was done on ALL lobes.

I'll continue using a oil with ZDDP.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 2:35pm
That experiment is a joke.. 3600 total miles on an engine already broken in and some vague assumptions about lifter wear that would be consistent amongst lobes on a failed cam is nowhere near enough information to put forth a hypothesis.. I am not saying it is wrong but it ain't gonna make it to a theory based on this level of work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 2:46pm
I think it's interesting that someone who looks at oil samples all day, every day, looked into the phenomenon. May not have been the best method but at least he's looking at it. Tough crowd! I'll think twice before posting up interesting information now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JoeinNY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 2:58pm
It is not uninteresting but the aircraft analogy just doesnt have a lot of application to the marinized automotive small blocks we typically talk about and to which he is trying to extrapolate his experience. The lifts durations and spring pressures on small aircraft engines flat tappets typically arent anywhere near as agressive. They are designed an applyied to produce reliable continuous hp relatively economically it aint the same situation. I think the joke part applys due to his holier than thou explanation of the scientific method followed by an analysis that completely ignores proper design of experiments.

I dont see how a critique of it would lead you to not want to post something.. better to expose it to the light of review and see how it stands up than take it on its own merits whether it be right or possibly wrong info.. at least it gives us something to rant against on a very very slow preholiday work day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 3:03pm
Some jokes are interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 3:06pm
Original post fixed. Too bad I can't actually use HTML.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 3:08pm
I've read other Blackstone analysis reports and the wear elements just don't add up to what we see in our lab. An aircraft cam is likely billet and not surface hardened cast.
Aluminium (piston skirt) and the tri / bi metal crank and cam bearings are soft and show up. Chrome plated rings and cylinders too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martin 74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 3:19pm
It's interesting to me that many of the miles on the truck were highway miles. Seems like you see the most severe wear at cold starts, that's when you need an oil with zink that will adhere to and coat the moving parts. Try the test with 25 cold starts then see what happens.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 3:33pm
Joel,
Don't get all bent out of shape here with our comments. I found the report interesting but it's still, as Joe states a "joke". Don't let opinions deter you from posting information.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote weitekampt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 3:55pm
I read that report and I must say that I was surprised at his method too. I use blackstone frequently for oil analysis on my 7.3 diesel truck. They are usually very thorough and have good suggestions. This test was in my opinion not very good because he didn't break in the engine properly PLUS his intervals were less than 2k miles with mixed driving miles (town/highway). As somebody else pointed out, some miles were highway and most were local. Bad comparison. Heck, I won't take the sample if I had done excessive towing, excessive idling, or added a quart within 1k miles.

Basically, I didn't learn a damn thing because I don't have a aircraft engine, heard of that oil, nor agree with his testing methods. He very easily could have pulled someones reports...such as mine...and posted results over 200k miles.

Just my .02

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 4:31pm
Yeah, the report was twaddle, for many reasons.
But hardest to bear was his interjections about 'good science'.
He obviously doesn't understand the failure mechanism, how a flat cam works, or how fast an engine goes from working fine to a paperwight.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thatdude596 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 4:31pm
zddp is overrated...i know tons of people with nautiques that have no issues using typical oil...including myself
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 5:01pm
Like Todd, I've used Blackstone several times for oil analysis on my daily driver and I've always been impressed with them. That's why when I received this newsletter I was excited to post it here, thinking stuff like the airplane engine parallel and the thing about zinc being in large quantities in lots of oils, etc. would be new information. Knowing nothing about airplane engines, and, trusting the company in the past made me think it would be good info to share. Besides making me look like an idiot for posting it I wonder what this says about Blackstone?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 5:19pm
Joel, this will make you feel better.



Or worse since we'll never be anywhere close to this good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote weitekampt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 8:29pm
No harm no foul Joel. I also opened up the e-mail hoping there would be some useful information....but slightly disappointed.

Here is the way I look at the big picture...at one time I owned 4 vehicles and none of them with under 100k miles with 2 of them reaching 150k. I put most of those miles on too. I had done nothing but 3k mile oil changes with standard oil and filters. I have never had bearing problems or excessive wear. Heck, when I had my 5.0 ford rebuilt the machine shop asked why I was even doing it! I used standard Penzoil in most of the vehicles with no issues/problems.

Here is my point.....regular maintenance will buy you many many miles on your cars and hours on our boats. Use a good product and you will be fine. I have used the ZR-1 in my Nautique and 15W-40 CenPeCo tractor in her too. I continue to use the tractor oil due to high ZDDP per the manufacturer and oil analysis done on my PowerStroke.

Go with your gut guys....you'll be just fine!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote weitekampt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 8:33pm
I should also say this doesn't change my opinioin of Blackstone. This is just one guys tests. If he decided the numbers that would be one thing. We all know that the numbers from analysis are computer generated and legit. I still think they are a good company and will continue to use them. I might sift through the articles a bit more though!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-24-2010 at 8:40pm
I did a quick oil change on my friends box truck, 6.0 litre, I popped the cork and this brown looking sludge rolled out, all 1.5 qts of it...moral of the story, make sure you have oil in the engine and I dont think you will see any problems,
but again I have seen alot of cam failures in the last 2 years and probably the end result of scheduled oil changes but the wrong oil. its not a epihany, get oil with zinc or a zinc additive with your favorite oil, we know what fails cams, and be done with it. we beat this horse to death and maybe create fear?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brktracer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2010 at 3:32pm
I used some oil with no zinc before. Mobil 1 synthetic. 3 cams later I figured out the problem. This was before all the ZDDP hype. I learned the hard way.

I guess it doesn't matter in a stock engine that runs 2,000 rpm with 60 lbs. on the seat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nautique Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2010 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Brktracer Brktracer wrote:

I used some oil with no zinc before. Mobil 1 synthetic. 3 cams later I figured out the problem. This was before all the ZDDP hype. I learned the hard way.

I guess it doesn't matter in a stock engine that runs 2,000 rpm with 60 lbs. on the seat.


What weight Mobil 1 did you have the failures with? I have been using Mobil 1 15w50 for years. I am a newbie here and these threads have me scared to death that I have been causing damage to the engines.   

Per Mobils website they show the 15w50 having a nominal zinc level of 1300 ppm. I assume this is the zddp everyone is talking about? Mobil actually states on the document that it is designed for Flat Tappet engines. Per the other threads I think this falls within the limits we want of min 1200 to max 1400?

Anyone else use Mobil 1 15w50 and have problems? I have about 7 years of using it without any issues, but still thinking about changing and calling the guy I sold my old boat to and telling him to read this thread.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote horkn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2010 at 6:19pm
Chad, part of the issue with mobil 1 is that they have altered the labeling over the years. It was confusing before with cap colors dictating what oil was what, and now they got rid of the old system that many used to understand.

The blackstone study is interesting, but IMHO not enough miles/ data was logged to make the study useful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2010 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by thatdude596 thatdude596 wrote:

zddp is overrated...i know tons of people with nautiques that have no issues using typical oil...including myself

Not given,
And now in just over 24 hours, you now know 4 people with first hand experience with cam problems attributed to no ZDDP!

BTW, just wanting to make a comparison, how many people is a "ton"? Also, when you see any of them again, ask them what brand of oil filters they use. Fram's?    


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thatdude596 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-25-2010 at 11:39pm
i use frams on my new dodge ram, my volkswagen and nautique. hell i have used them on every car/truck, or suv..no problems.a "ton" 12-15 ski boats . i think if you change your oil every 50 hrs and every 3000 miles you will be fine. maybe we all just got lucky??? again run what you want, but i dont know anyone including myself running an additive or special oil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waterdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-29-2010 at 10:05am
thatdude596,

    Just for the heck of it do your own $10 test on filters. Buy a new Fram and a new Wix and cut them open. Roll out the filter paper side by side the Wix has 1/3 more filter paper. Take the by-pass valve out, the Fram is plastic and the Wix is steel. Fram is probably good enough but dollar for dollar there ARE much better filters out there for the same money.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thatdude596 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-29-2010 at 2:17pm
^^^im sure they are not the best, but they are the cheapest by price. if im correct they are the number one selling filter. never heard of wix. i will continue to run what has worked for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2010 at 9:12am
Originally posted by thatdude596 thatdude596 wrote:

^^^im sure they are not the best, but they are the cheapest by price. if im correct they are the number one selling filter. never heard of wix. i will continue to run what has worked for me.

Not given,
Andy above brought out the major issues on the Fram filters but I suggest taking a look at this thread: Why Fram filters are bad. In it is a link by Gary on a very good examination of most major filters. I feel you'll find it interesting.

The most important cheap feature of the Fram is it's lack of filter surface area. With less area, the paper will become clogged before others with more area not allowing oil flow. When this happens, the filters by-pass opens up so oil will pass but, no filtration!!!

Yes, Fram may be the best selling filter but this is due to mass marketing. Build a cheap filter, make more profit, spend it on marketing, sell more filters and make more money!!!

I happen to respect my engines and gladly pay a couple more dollars on the best filters. Evidently you don't and shop on price. Sounds like you do the same on oil as well.

BTW, with those 12 to 15 ski boat owners you refered to, how many of them are MC owners?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewy2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2010 at 10:13am
Pete I have always used Baldwin or Ryco oil filters they are both mentioned in that article. Ryco's were made in Australia once but now are manufactured in China they had a great name for quality in Australia and manufactured the Z9 for the Ford Motor Company in Australia. The Baldwin filters are marked as manufactured in the US. I have just cut open both these filters. The Baldwin B2 is as described in that original article (44 pleats cartridge length 4.25") the Ryco has changed somewhat the cartridge is now a 4 3/8" long but has 83 pleats! Easily the most surface area. The rest of the construction looks to be as described in that original article.

I had been buying Baldwin filters over the last few years as they have a good name in truck maintenance and they were manufactured in the US. After doing this test I may have to go back to the Ryco's which I had moved away from once they started making them in China.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2010 at 10:25am
An oil change with the best oil and filter you can buy still costs less than a tank of gas. I simply don't understand why anyone would haggle over spending a few dollars to properly maintain their boat. Considering most people probably change their oil once maybe twice a season it just doesn't make any sense at all to skimp on something as important as a motor oil and filter. If you've ever spent any time around cars, heavy equipment or machinery you would know what a poor maintenance regiment would look like. You can't prolong the interval or quality of your maintenance program or you will pay.
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