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Transmission Fluid Type - Dextron or SAE20?

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ttgoddard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttgoddard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Transmission Fluid Type - Dextron or SAE20?
    Posted: July-13-2011 at 1:11pm
Hi,

I have a 1990 SN with PCM engine and transmission (Velvet Drive). The manual I have with the boat states to use Dextron transmission fluid, however, the plate on the tranny states to use SAE20??

The fluid that is in there now I can only assume is SAE20 as it is pretty much clear and not the typical red associated with tranny fluid.

Also, what is the best way of getting as much of the old fluid out as possible, I thought I had read about taking the cooler line off and firing it up for a moment too, but not certain.

Any answers to the two above questions would be greatly appreciated as I planned to changed the fluid this weekend.

Thanks,

Tony
1990 Ski Nautique
351 PCM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eric lavine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2011 at 1:30pm
are you sure its a Velvet?
"the things you own will start to own you"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttgoddard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2011 at 1:59pm
I think so, I can double check, I know for sure it has PCM on the label and as I recall, 1:1.23 ratio.

Tony
1990 Ski Nautique
351 PCM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttgoddard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-13-2011 at 2:35pm
I just read another post that talked about the whining in the PCM Power Plus 1:1.23 tranny, that reminded me that's what mine is a Power Plus, I can double check when at home, but I am 99.9% sure the label states PCM Power Plus 1:1.23 and to use SAE20.

It does also whine but only when I am idling in forward or reverse, quietens down when I start to accelerate.
1990 Ski Nautique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttgoddard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-16-2011 at 9:22pm
Hi again,

I checked and is states the transmission model is a PCM 40A, does that make it a Power Plus?

I read some of the posts and see where PCM have recommended you change to Dextron/Merc oil from SAE20 which is hard to find.

Would that be the case for my 40A tranny too?

Most of the posts talk about flushing it twice when you change over. If I was going to pull a cooler line to drain it more easily, is there a preference for which line to pull, I'm guessing not as it only runs thru anyway.

Can I drain it all this way or should I pump first then a quick start and stop with a cooler line off?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Tony
1990 Ski Nautique
351 PCM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-17-2011 at 12:54am
Tony - Yes, you have a PCM tranny.     Dex III is best.     Flush it at least twice (Run it in fwd & rev some) - It's only $3.50 a qt, takes 2 qts each flush.     I just pump it out, using a 1/8" copper ice maker line to get to the bottom of the case.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 84SNautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February-14-2013 at 2:14pm
Saw your message about a whine in the transmission,,,have you gotten that corrected and if so what did you do.....mine has always done that... thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2013 at 4:49am
The PCM Marine Engines Service Manual says to read the transmission fluid at operating temp (190F max) and to measure it quickly on engine shutdown before the cooler and cooler lines drain back. It also says to warm the fluid prior to changing by running the engine in neutral for 5 minutes at 1500 rpm.

How much difference does the drain back make in checking the level?

Does 5 minutes in neutral at 1500 rpm warm the trans fluid enough to accurately measure the level, or does the boat need to be run on the lake?

If the flushes require forward and reverse to be effective, that has to be done at the lake, right? That is not practical in our case.

I have a Warner Velvet Drive Model 10-17-003 Direct Drive (1:1). The PCM Engine Owners Manual that I have (not sure of the year) says the fluid capacity depends on angle of installation but provides some estimates. They list reduction gears and vee drives, which I don't have. And they list an "AS 1-7C". Does that apply to my 10-17-003, or is this just the wrong year manual? The listed capacity is 1.8 qts level and 1.3 qts inclined to 15 degrees.

Finally, what pump have you guys found to be best to remove the fluid? I have one of those Jabsco pumps that gets chucked into an electric drill and never had much luck trying to pump motor oil out through the dipstick tube on my other boat (so I drain it and usually make a mess in the very tight bilge).

Thanks.

Steve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2013 at 10:04am
Steve - You only need to be in fwd / rev for about 10 seconds, it just fills up the piston cavities. Just wet down the cutlass bearing.

Unless it was leaking, just put back in what you take out, should be just shy of 2 qts.

Using a vacuum tank to suck out the fluid is the way to go. You can buy them. I made my own but I have a DIY disease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2013 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Tony - Yes, you have a PCM tranny.     Dex III is best.     Flush it at least twice (Run it in fwd & rev some) - It's only $3.50 a qt, takes 2 qts each flush.     I just pump it out, using a 1/8" copper ice maker line to get to the bottom of the case.


$3.50/qt???? I just picked up some from my local Autozone last week and it was $6.00/qt. Still cheap, but not $3.50 cheap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-19-2013 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by JPASS JPASS wrote:

$3.50/qt???? I just picked up some from my local Autozone last week and it was $6.00/qt. Still cheap, but not $3.50 cheap.


Let's talk about that. In other threads, Kevin (KRoundy) wrote, "Conventional ATF, Dexron/Mercon, not synthetic" and (as above) Chris (SNobsessed) wrote, "Dex III is best". Other than changing the lube in my sterndrive, I've never done a thing with gearboxes or transmissions. So would it be heresy to flush the transmission with conventional ATF or Dexron II (if it is perhaps on sale for half the price of the Dex III). If half price, it would save 12 bucks on the flushing, which is chump change, I know (except that everything I've been doing is chump change, but it adds up to a gorilla size total). But does it matter for the flush?

(Example... my old Merc 140 was losing oil pressure a few years ago. A good friend who is a mechanic guessed correctly that there was sludge in the oil pan due to the old formula oils that used to be used, and it was clogging the oil pickup. I was pulling the engine anyway, but he warned that 35 year old oil pan screws might not be so easy to extract. So I did a very brief Seafoam oil treatment (heresy!), then drained, refilled with cheap SAE30 oil, ran it for 10 mins, drained, refilled with cheapo oil again, ran, drained again. I got a LOT of sludge out. Filled with the good oil and I've had excellent oil pressure since. But maybe transmission fluid doesn't play nice like engine oil... so I'm asking.)


Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

Using a vacuum tank to suck out the fluid is the way to go. You can buy them. I made my own but I have a DIY disease.


Good suggestion, Chris. I looked briefly online and these are $50 to $1000. I have a 125 psi air compressor, and I read that some of these use an air compressor (maybe through a venturi to create the vaccum?). I've got tanks and plumbing stuff laying around. Any suggestions on how to proceed on DIY (pics or websites)?


Thanks.

Steve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2013 at 6:35pm
From the horses mouth several years ago:

Hi Sean

Thank you for bringing your question to us. The simple answer is Dexron III
is what PCM currently recommends. PCM first used 20W oil (commonly found in
motor cycles and farm equipment) and this likely is what came in your
transmission when new (when your owners manual was printed).

While Dexron has a 20W viscosity, it cannot be mixed with oil.
To switch from 20W oil to Dexron, drain and fill your transmission with
Dexron, run the engine until warm, then immediately drain and fill again.

Please feel free to call or write back if you have further questions.

Regards,

Jim Jetmore
Customer Service
Correct Craft, Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Customer Service,

>
>      I own a 1992 Ski Nautique with the PCM PRO BOSS engine and PCM-40A
>      1.23/1 transmission. The plate on the transmission and the boat
>      owners manual both specify to use 20 - 20W engine oil in the
>      transmission. Because I couldn't find 20-20W engine oil I spoke to a
>      Nautique dealer and another marina that services Nautiques and they
>      both said to use Dextron III ATF. What oil should I be using ?
>
>      Thank You,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2013 at 8:02pm
Thanks, desertskier, that pretty much answers that. I looked around and Dexron II is pretty hard to find, anyway, so no cost savings there. The original Dexron, made with sperm whale oil, seems to be bragged up by a lot of people, but we're saving the planet so no go. So the conclusion is to flush with Dexron III.

I think I might try one of the cheap 12V oil change pumps. It can't possibly work any worse than the piece of junk pump I chuck into my drill. And if it pumps slowly, I can measure the job in beers.   


OK, so does anyone have a favorite Dexron III manufacturer, and if so, why? I get the impression it's whichever one is on sale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2013 at 10:46pm
Steve - I obtained a refrig compressor from my neighbor, so I use that for the vacuum source. I have the fluid suck into a garden sprayer tank, capped with a big plug. I have about $5 cost in it, most of that went for the compressor plug.

If you need a budget approach, go to a beauty supply store & get a gallon bottle pump, they are about $2 (at least they used to be, just like Dex III was $3.50 not that long ago). Hook up hoses as required.
It is a little tedious, but it will eventually do the job.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2013 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by SNobsessed SNobsessed wrote:

...beauty supply store & get a gallon bottle pump, they are about $2 (at least they used to be, just like Dex III was $3.50 not that long ago).


lol, 8 bucks on ebay. Man, what happened to dime tappers?   

Thanks for the info. I think I'll give the little 12V pump a try and see what I see.

Any thoughts on the Dexron III manufacturer?

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2013 at 9:00am
Valvoline or Castrol are OK & available just about anywhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-21-2013 at 10:11am
I just picked up Castrol Dex/Merc trans fluid from my local Autozone for $6/qt. There's a pic of the container Here

I also used This to drain the fluid. Not cheap, but extremely handy and I can use it for other things around the garage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boardersdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-22-2013 at 12:39am
Thanks, guys, it looks like the Castrol and Valvoline ATF Dexron-III/Mercon are available at Wally World for about $17 for a gallon jug.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CrazyCanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-25-2013 at 11:45pm
Is the dex 3 the right tranny oil for the older 1:1 ratio borg warners on the commander engines? Mine is a 78, and has red fluid in it, but I have no way of knowing if its the right red fluid...lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SNobsessed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-26-2013 at 9:45am
Yes - Dex III is the right stuff.
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