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floor repair and exploration

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teelta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-29-2012 at 1:38pm
I got the 3:1 hardener system so it cannot be used below 55 degrees. Thanks for all the tips guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Waternut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-29-2012 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by Waternut Waternut wrote:

Remember that published cure times are typically taken in 75-80 degree weather. If you're working in 40-50 degree weather, your cure times and pot life times will probably double.

Pot and cure times are also dependent on the hardener used.

Also, pour your mixed epoxy into a roller pan rather than a container. Spreading the mix out will increase the pot life.


Yes epoxy is an exothermic reaction meaning that mixing it produces heat. The more surface area the resin can make with itself, the more heat it will generate which will speed up the curing process. I personally can't use enough resin fast enough to justify mixing that much but spreading it out is good practice anyway.

Always mix the resin and hardener in epoxy resins per the instructions though. Mixing extra hardener with polyester resins will make them cure noticeably faster. Mixing extra hardener with epoxies doesn't make that much of a difference in cure times and actually degrades the strength of the resin. If you need to speed up the cure time, use heat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-30-2012 at 9:50pm
Originally posted by Air206 Air206 wrote:

Roger:

Awesome tips! The logistics of doing stringers always floored me (pun intended)..... your words of wisdom are really helpful to many newbies trying to wrap their heads around all this. Thanks for taking the time to add........ AWESOME!

Steve


Thanks Steve…you will find its not so much what you use but how you set your build up…biax is all about time pre cut all your layers, pour un mixed epoxy into mega cups and if using pumps pump out the right amount of hardener into smaller cups so if working alone its quick to mix a batch up…for me I found .5 liter plus hardener batches to start and adjust up or down to your biax … found my 6in wide biax would take 2 x .5 batches to soak a full stringer length biax pour straight from the mixing cup along the length of the biax around 1.5 in wide you will find it much quicker to then roller out into the biax than back and forth loading up a roller in a tray…remember that you won't use as much epoxy on the other side of the biax but if you have spare just push onto the next strip of biax on your lay up table.
Have lots mixing sticks and longer sticks that can be cut easy so if you have a real tight corner or a bit that won't stay down just put a small bit of plastic over the end and wedge off the hull/Old stringers untill it grabs…yes have a roller tray with a small amount of epoxy in for dabbing in as you go and somewhere to put the roller.
Take off some pictures from the site to check yourself as you go…if unsure stop and reset your self and have a fall back part you can use up wet biax…exhaust port,bracket mounts,lift mount.
You find this will give you plenty of time to lay your biax and not rushed.
Mark lines with a sharpie on one end of the roll of biax before you cut to size then its easy to see which way your laying.
Don't use the same drink cup as the ones your using as mixing pots…you will mix them up…
You will use more epoxy in a biax build than in a cloth build,and as you can see biax needs to be set up more.
More will post there ways …just pick which works for you as that will give the best results

Roger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2013 at 4:19pm
Roger, I understand the pre-wet process. The only thing I am a little fuzzy on is whether or not to put epoxy on the stringer (vertical surface) and let it get tacky before applying the fiberglass? If so, mix with Cabosil to keep all of it from running off the vertical surface? Or just put on thin layer without cabosil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2013 at 4:50pm
Hi Trey
If your laying Biax yes pre coat in epoxy only and let it sticky up on all faces before you wet up the Biax........you can lay straight after the pre coat if the shape is nice and uniform with slow bends ...but if its tight corners sticky helps grab the Biax as you spread out the air/folds.....I would recommend you do a small area first just to get a feel for it...don’t steam into an full stringer first.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2013 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by uk1979 uk1979 wrote:

Hi Trey
If your laying Biax yes pre coat in epoxy only and let it sticky up on all faces before you wet up the Biax........you can lay straight after the pre coat if the shape is nice and uniform with slow bends ...but if its tight corners sticky helps grab the Biax as you spread out the air/folds.....I would recommend you do a small area first just to get a feel for it...don’t steam into an full stringer first.

Mix the epoxy with a thickener or just coat thinly and don't worry about any runs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2013 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by uk1979 uk1979 wrote:

I would recommend you do a small area first just to get a feel for it

I agree... your line of questioning would imply that youve never worked with epoxy resin before. Am I right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2013 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by teelta teelta wrote:

Originally posted by uk1979 uk1979 wrote:

Hi Trey
If your laying Biax yes pre coat in epoxy only and let it sticky up on all faces before you wet up the Biax........you can lay straight after the pre coat if the shape is nice and uniform with slow bends ...but if its tight corners sticky helps grab the Biax as you spread out the air/folds.....I would recommend you do a small area first just to get a feel for it...don’t steam into an full stringer first.

Mix the epoxy with a thickener or just coat thinly and don't worry about any runs?


Just coat thinly....I find a short pile/varnish 4inch roller good and a brush for in the corners.....just use the cheap rollers in multi packs from a DIY shed no point in trying to clean after just bin it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-04-2013 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

Originally posted by uk1979 uk1979 wrote:

I would recommend you do a small area first just to get a feel for it

I agree... your line of questioning would imply that youve never worked with epoxy resin before. Am I right?

Just with that first stringer and I just repaired my muffler...so other than that, no. I read in Bill's build that he used some thickener so it wouldn't run straight down the stringer. Roger didn't mention using any so I was just clarifying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-20-2013 at 6:25pm
OK got my first stringer glassed in. There are 3 layers of Biax...3", 6" and 12".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-21-2013 at 5:53am
Looks great Trey, your a pro now…well done
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-21-2013 at 8:03am
Yes, it sure looks great especially getting that biax to lay down in the corners.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-21-2013 at 3:29pm
Roger I went with your technique. It worked well. I really liked using the roller vs. paint brush...much faster.

In the places where the epoxy pooled it is distinctively smooth and I will sand those areas for sure before applying any more epoxy like to fair out the bilge. But what about areas where it is already rough like on top of the stringer or the area by the secondary stringer (most of it is rough as well) where I need to put more glass on when glassing the secondaries in. Do I need to sand those areas as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-21-2013 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by teelta teelta wrote:

Roger I went with your technique. It worked well. I really liked using the roller vs. paint brush...much faster.

In the places where the epoxy pooled it is distinctively smooth and I will sand those areas for sure before applying any more epoxy like to fair out the bilge. But what about areas where it is already rough like on top of the stringer or the area by the secondary stringer (most of it is rough as well) where I need to put more glass on when glassing the secondaries in. Do I need to sand those areas as well?


Hi Trey,
If you have let the Epoxy dry fully (over 16 hours) then its sanding all over before the next layer,Check if your epoxy can Blush after fully drying if so wash off with soapy water then sand all over before re laying, I use a none blush epoxy over here....
If sanding by hand 60 or 80 grit will give a good key...you just need to take the shine off don't sand real hard.
It look real good from over here glad it worked out for you.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-21-2013 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by teelta teelta wrote:

Roger I went with your technique. It worked well. I really liked using the roller vs. paint brush...much faster.

In the places where the epoxy pooled it is distinctively smooth and I will sand those areas for sure before applying any more epoxy like to fair out the bilge. But what about areas where it is already rough like on top of the stringer or the area by the secondary stringer (most of it is rough as well) where I need to put more glass on when glassing the secondaries in. Do I need to sand those areas as well?


Sorry Trey I didn't answer all your points....as for the rough tops of your stringers how many layers are on them now....when you say 3 layers is that 3 complete layers ... if so then as you work on the other stringers at the end of each batch of epoxy keep the left over’s in a tray as it stiffens up roll or brush over the tops or add some thickening you have and spread over ,the more you work with it you will see when it just right consistency to level out like in your bilge has in parts (a bit like honey).......it will still need to be pre sanded before each coat.

When you cut out your secondary stringer you will need to grind back the old glass and as you go along the new main side feather (lightly grind) the edge back slopping down onto the hull around a inch or so to give a smooth lap, over the rest of the biax 60 or 80 if hand sanding.

Measure the thickness of the finished stringer against the unfinished wood for the other side divide by 2 and that will give you a good Idea of what to allow for the biax so your cradle will fit back in.......I would then add an extra 3/16 for squeak room/epoxy paint.    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-22-2013 at 1:56am
[/QUOTE]
Sorry Trey I didn't answer all your points....as for the rough tops of your stringers how many layers are on them now....
[/QUOTE]

Just one layer over the top. the 3 layers bonded to the side of the stringer to the hull.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-22-2013 at 9:08am
Originally posted by teelta teelta wrote:


Sorry Trey I didn't answer all your points....as for the rough tops of your stringers how many layers are on them now....
[/QUOTE]

Just one layer over the top. the 3 layers bonded to the side of the stringer to the hull.[/QUOTE]

Trey, I would add another layer of biax to the top of the stringers.....try to run the 45 degree layer the other way to the one already laid, it’s not just for strength but to full enclose the wood stringer to stop moisture entering them, one layer could crack/damage over time.

Once your done work out the thickness of the biax on the new and you can cut a notch out of the old and measure how thick it was remember there is around 1/16 + of gel over it, the new will be stronger than the old, my guess is there be around the same as your boat is a 89 and CC would have refined there methods from my old 78.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2013 at 5:55pm
I finally finished fiberglassing all 4 stringers!


I'm pleased with how they turned out.
While it was too cold to work outside. I worked on painting/powder coating engine parts...

I do have a question...I was sanding off the little edge of floor I left and I think started to run into the gel coat??? It was white with patterned dots. It will get more epoxy and fiberglass over it so should I just leave it or put extra fiberglass over it? Here is pic of the worst spot (the edge of the shadow)..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2013 at 6:18pm
Looks great Trey...as for the side I would Epoxy over with layers of cloth first start with a inch or so bigger than the thin area and each layer you add should over lap by a inch or so, say 3 or 4 layers then 3 layers of biax to finish....it is key to make sure there are no air gaps on the first cloth layers...if you are right at the back of the gel a air gap could blister later on.
Now with your epoxy skills this repair is easy     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cphase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2013 at 9:40pm
Fram Alert!!!

Thanks,

Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2013 at 11:24am
Roger, that is a lot of glass. That will be much thicker than what is there now. What I'm wondering is...the area will be glassed over anyway when I glass the floor so is it necessary to put anything on it now before the floor goes in?
Also wondering what is it? What is the area I sanded into that is white with dotted pattern?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uk1979 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2013 at 1:27pm
Trey....yes it is more than what you have, my thinking is that this area has been poor from when it was pulled from the mould, the dots you see are the roving pattern when removed leaving small gaps that over time have filled with dirt/grim from water in the foam/floor inside the hull.... that’s why it ground off so quick it was never well stuck with gaps.
My worry now is with all the new stringers in the hull it is much more ridged and will telegraph shock/flex up the sides finding that week spot damaging the gel with stress cracks.

IMO just using the glass from the floor up the sides won’t be enough to support it as it looks to be thin about 12 inches along the floor line, better to build up first so all shock/flex will go all the way down the hull sides, and the floor joint will not pull at that point stressing the gel.

If it was me once you have finished all the hull glassing make some home brew CPES and coat all the inside of the hull to 6inches above the water line to seal up the hull before laying the floor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 3:19pm
I am about to cut out the plywood section that goes in front of engine. There was nothing left of the wood I took out so I can't use as a template. The only measurement I am not sure of is where the hole goes for the ski pylon. If anyone has an 89 SN, can you provide me the measurements as well as size of hole? Does carpet go down inside hole?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 3:21pm
That hole needs to be lined up to be directly above the cup glassed to the hull that the pylon sits in. The pylon is 2.5" diam. The pylon is held securely by the cradle, so the hole through the floor just needs to be finished off to look nice (not structural). Your call on how you do the carpet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kytom2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 4:12pm
The floor in that area was toast when I did mine too. When I got to this point I made a cardboard template for the placement of the pylon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote teelta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 5:23pm
Yep, that is exactly what I planned on doing if no one had any measurements for me. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HatterBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 7:36pm
Insert a small screwdriver in the cup by the handle and make sure it is straight and then set the floor section down and let the screwdriver mark where the hole needs to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 7:50pm
That'll be a little trickier on a '89... all ball top pylons (mid 87 and newer) are a full 2.5" diameter all the way to the base, so the cup is much larger than the 1" diam on the ring and finger versions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dochockey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 8:18pm
I will be near my boat this weekend, I can take some measurements if you can wait
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HatterBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2013 at 9:13pm
Thanks Tim. I didn't realize that. That would be a pretty big screwdriver.
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