2000 SN Stiff steering |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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Posted: April-26-2015 at 10:04pm |
So we've changed the steering cable twice in about 5ish years and it didn't make any noticeable difference in steering stiffness. The steering is really easy when stationary but under power, it takes a lot of effort.
We inspected the rudder packing before replacing it to see what size we needed. When everything was reinstalled, we added some grease to the packing and the rudder shaft. This made a huge difference and the boat was a dream to drive! Figuring the packing was done for, we replaced the packing and reassembled everything with grease with fantastic results. After a couple weeks, it seems like the grease wears off and the stiffness goes back to crap. Any idea what's causing this? Is there supposed to be a seal or anything at the bottom of the rudder? |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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Bump...
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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How much slop is there between the rudder port and the shaft?
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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There is no slop when it's installed. I could try to pull the rudder and measure both the rudder shaft and the rudder port.
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6150 |
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Usually excessive rudder shaft to port clearance makes for hard steering under load because it binds the shaft in the port barrel.
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Installed with the packing reasonably tight it isn't going to move, however if there is a lot of clearance between the two it can point load the top and bottom of the port underway and not turn as easily. I have seen trying to keep the bends in the cable as sweeping as possible help a bit as well. I haven't seen an oil seal installed on one but it could be done...
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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The point loading causing issues under heavy rudder loading is certainly what it seems like.
So realistically the only fix is to either continue greasing the rudder shaft and packing regularly...or...replace both the shaft and rudder port because our current one is likely too worn? |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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So I pulled the rudder and shaft yesterday to measure the two. The rudder measures between 1.244" - 1.246" on the entire length and the shaft measures 1.250 at the top and bottom. The inside of the rudder packing nuts measures 1.730-1.733.
Based on these measurements, I can't see how these parts are worn. There has to be something else wrong with this rudder that make it drag. We've tried 2 and 3 rings of 1/4" packing and the steering cable has been replaced without much change. The only thing that makes any difference is grease on the packing but even that creates more drag than any other boat I've driven. Maybe the stack up of all the parts is wrong or there is a piece missing or adjusted poorly. Below is the installed rudder. Is this correct? How tight should everything be? |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Is there any up and down movement? I would think there would be when you had 2 rings of packing vs three. When you tighten the bolt from the top it's not pulling the arm down and binding it to the packing nut is it ?
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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3 rings didn't allow the tiller arm to sit flush with the top of the rudder. The only way to make it flush was to overtighten the packing nut which made the rudder extremely difficult to move even while stationary.
2 rings allowed the packing nut to sit lower but yes there is a little bit of up/down movement in the rudder now. About 1/8". |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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What size packing are you using? |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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1/4" |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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Seen your post on BOS about the same issue. I noticed here you didn't add the fact that the boat steers hard to the right. Do you think the 1/4" packing is too big?
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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Well it turns slightly harder to the right but after installing grease on the packing, it isn't hard anymore. Left is a little more automatic is all. I'm not positive that 1/4" is the right size but the difference between the inside of the packing nut and the rudder shaft is 0.480" so a layer of 1/4" packing on each side would seem reasonable.
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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Let's have a pic of the trim tab on the rudder. I have mine probably 1/16" off from dead center and that provides plenty of rudder load. If the tab is tweaked one way or another in any major way, or the rudder has been ground, it would change steering feel significantly.
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2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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There is no rudder grinding. The trim tab position makes little to no difference on rudder torque on this boat. We've gone both ways and really don't notice anything. Right now it's pushed as far to the drivers side as it'll go.
Could the prop have anything to do with all this? There is a stainless 4 blade prop on this boat and it's probably 3-4 inches from the rudder. My boat barely has 1/4" between the prop and the rudder. |
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M3Fan
Grand Poobah Joined: October-22-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3185 |
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Well, at least set it neutral for the purposes of getting 1 more variable out of play. Putting it all the way one way or another should impart a dramatic difference in rudder load. As for the prop, perhaps borrow somebody else's just to try it out. Do you know what the diameter, pitch, and cup on the prop is? Stainless props were cool in the 90's but these days it's all CNC props or nothing. |
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2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel
2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
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AAM196
Gold Member Joined: October-23-2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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So you say after repacking the rudder it was good for a while but stiffness returns??? Dumb question, but are you using marine grease and does regreasing at the zerk provide any relief?
As for the rudder trim tab, take Joel's advise and set to neutral... mine is also only set to about 1/8 or 1/16 off center and works well. |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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I don't know the specs on that stainless prop. I'll see if we can borrow a friends prop soon. My boat has a 1:1 transmission or I'd try my CNC prop.
We've tried about every grease imaginable and yes the stiffness returns in a matter of weeks. The best grease I've ever used was some stuff I have in a small (and very expensive) tub and that lasted a month or two. I've never seen this stuff in a tube though. The grease fitting in the above picture did nothing because we couldn't get grease in it when everything was tightened down. I added an additional grease fitting near the top, pulled the spring ball out of the lower one, and allowed tiny gaps in the packing to let grease pass through from the top to the bottom. Time will tell if that helps but the goal was to try and get some grease in there from time to time without having to drop the rudder. |
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AAM196
Gold Member Joined: October-23-2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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Should the zerk be ON the packing nut???
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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1:1 in a 2000?
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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no
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Sleepyone
Groupie Joined: September-05-2014 Location: Brandon Ms Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Im with Orlando 76 and Hollywood. The zerk fitting should be on the Bronze base not the nut. the Gease is going on top of the packing not underneath into the shaft. Just my thought!
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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1:1 tranny is in my boat...the 2000 SN (friends boat) uses something else (1:1.23 I believe) and therefore the prop is a completely different. Sorry for the confusion.
From my experience, the zerk fitting is usually in the base because there is an o-ring below the zerk fitting and therefore you're lubing the bearings in the rudder port. Are these rudders meant to make contact with the rudder in the entire bore or just at the packing? I would think if full rudder contact was meant, surely there would be some substantial galling or wear on the rudder or the rudder port. Right? |
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AAM196
Gold Member Joined: October-23-2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Status: Offline Points: 846 |
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well... my 99 doesn't have a zerk either but the 83 MC has one right on the bronze about an inch up from the bottom plate... that is where I'd put one.
I bet that helps your steering |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Sounds good with the OD's and ID's but what about straightness of the rudder shaft? Does it get any tighter the farther into the port you go? |
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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Maybe we'll add another zerk fitting at the bottom if the top one won't push grease down far enough next time the steering gets a little stiff.
I didn't think to check for straightness but the rudder slid in smoothly until it hit the packing and then just a slight nudge more and it was in. Considering the close tolerance between the 2 parts, I would think it's pretty straight. |
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Sure it's not a helm problem?
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Waternut
Senior Member Joined: July-11-2012 Location: Macon, GA Status: Offline Points: 292 |
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The wheel is superlight when the cable isn't connected to the rudder. It doesn't feel like it would freewheel if you give it a flick but like there is nothing there. |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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John, .004 to .006 isn't close. Yes, as Kevin asked, are you sure it's the rudder and port? |
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