ZF Hurth, blood in the bilge.

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Hello all. 

So I opened the bilge and thought someone had died. Deep red liquid.
My buddy's boat thank Gawd almighty, or Bhudda as we are here in Thailand.
04 Élan American skier. 350 marine power with a ZF Hurth, dunno bout the model on the Hurth yet, but a bit o history , on this murder mystery.  Six month ago when I last visited he was running a proprietary mix of water/ATF in his Hurth.... Pepto Bismol if you like..due to a leaky oil cooler. Since replacing this cooler, he hasn't been able to keep the front seal in place, blowing it out of its seat regularly, accounting for the murderous color in the bilge.
Also, there has been an occasion to notice a buildup of metal shavings in the filter. Now also there seems to be quite the grinding coming from said Hurth. One more potential clue 
In my prior visit there was quite the vibration occurring, speculatively from a shaft or prop out of whackness. So..... There you have it.

We are likely to replace this as repairing such items here is a bit beyond the logistical scope of the environs. Yet, it would be valuable to have the members thoughts and speculations on what has most likely occurred here, or if anyone thinks this is a salvageable unit. I was following  similar post here concerning Velvet Drives blowing out front seals and Grand Poobah Eric seems to possess most informed wisdom. I would be humbled and grateful to here from the Master on this

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Planeguru Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: May-20-2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Planeguru Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: ZF Hurth, blood in the bilge. Posted: May-21-2015 at 3:31am
	Hello all. So I opened the bilge and thought someone had died. Deep red liquid. My buddy's boat thank Gawd almighty, or Bhudda as we are here in Thailand. 04 Élan American skier. 350 marine power with a ZF Hurth, dunno bout the model on the Hurth yet, but a bit o history , on this murder mystery. Six month ago when I last visited he was running a proprietary mix of water/ATF in his Hurth.... Pepto Bismol if you like..due to a leaky oil cooler. Since replacing this cooler, he hasn't been able to keep the front seal in place, blowing it out of its seat regularly, accounting for the murderous color in the bilge. Also, there has been an occasion to notice a buildup of metal shavings in the filter. Now also there seems to be quite the grinding coming from said Hurth. One more potential clue In my prior visit there was quite the vibration occurring, speculatively from a shaft or prop out of whackness. So..... There you have it. We are likely to replace this as repairing such items here is a bit beyond the logistical scope of the environs. Yet, it would be valuable to have the members thoughts and speculations on what has most likely occurred here, or if anyone thinks this is a salvageable unit. I was following similar post here concerning Velvet Drives blowing out front seals and Grand Poobah Eric seems to possess most informed wisdom. I would be humbled and grateful to here from the Master on this
	Pinball

backfoot100 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897	Post Options Post Reply Quote backfoot100 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 10:16am
	You didn't mention how long it was run with said Pepto Bismol when the cooler started leaking. You make it sound like the your buddy isn't too knowledgable about these things and was just running it like that until you showed up? You've already answered your own question about why it happened. The cooler started leaking and the vibration you had on your previous visit probably started the tranny toward it's demise before the cooler let go. Vibration can cause all sorts of problems. Irregardless, the tranny is toast. Time for a rebuild. It's not impossible for you to do if you have some above average mechanical skills but if you're not familiar, best left to someone who knows what they're doing. Then you need to figure out where the vibration is coming from. The propshaft needs to be removed and checked for straightness and the smallest nick in the prop may/may not cause serious vibrations. While you're in there you might as well replace the strut bearing and before you put it all together, by all means replace the damper on the flywheel. Then, after all that is done, you need to align the engine with the propshaft to make sure your new tranny doesn't crap the bed again after you go through all this work. Checking the propshaft for straightness and doing the alignment are all documented in the FAQ here. By the way, post some pics. As an American Skier owner myself, I would love to see that Elan.
	When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie

Planeguru Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: May-20-2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Planeguru Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 11:41am
	My narrative is perhaps off indeed. In any case thankyou very much for lining up a detailed repair path The cooler leak led to Pepto Bismol. It was run that way prior to me and after me. I wouldn't do it and you wouldn't do it, but it got done. Again, the overall situation with his operation is highly challenging. From acquiring tools, supplies, information, parts, and competent mechanical skills it's difficult if at all possible at times. Compounded by the weather, 90 plus degrees each and everyday of the year, in a third world country,and the need for the boat to run everyday, leads to many creative workarounds ( bailing wire) when it comes to repair and maintinece. Priorities often dictate operating the craft even when doing so will lead to early failure and damage. With whatever skills I possess I will spend some time lending a hand toward getting and keeping things running. I'll get some pics for ya. And again... Thankyou.
	Pinball

Planeguru Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: May-20-2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Planeguru Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 11:44am
	Oops. So probably running Pepto for 3 to 6 months. Unbelievable really... Heh heh
	Pinball

Planeguru Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: May-20-2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Planeguru Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 12:02pm

	Pinball

JoeinNY Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698	Post Options Post Reply Quote JoeinNY Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 12:30pm
	Not familiar with the Hurth specifically but running the water would cause that damage eventually. The bearings would wear from the inadequate lubrication, which then causes the seals around the shafts to fail from a combination of the increased slop in the shaft position and the increased oil making its way through the now enlarged bearing oil gaps. Leaks, vibration, disaster. I would highly doubt it would be worth rebuilding unless parts were super cheap and you did the work yourself. There might have been a propshaft vibration or alignment issue that made the problem worse, but the water alone could easily have led to this condition.
	1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" Holeshot Video

Planeguru Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: May-20-2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Planeguru Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 2:57pm
	He was so convinced of his proprietary mix..... Joking. Your words make sense. Tommorow well have a closer look and listen. Replacement will be at least a number weeks off yet. Cost plus shipping.... Ouch. A look inside this one will be revealing.. Thanks for your reply
	Pinball

8122pbrainard Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045	Post Options Post Reply Quote 8122pbrainard Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-21-2015 at 10:56pm
	I agree with Joe that considering the length of time the water was run in the trans the likelihood of the insides being torn up are high and a rebuild may not be feasible. I'd look for a replacement. The Hurth is a great trans but so is the alternate of installing a B/W Velvet. They both use the same SAE pattern on the bell housing and even have the same spline input shaft. The big problem with converting may be the mounts. You'd have to make sure you could find them as well.
	54 Atom 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete <

Planeguru Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: May-20-2015 Location: Thailand Status: Offline Points: 7	Post Options Post Reply Quote Planeguru Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-23-2015 at 3:31pm
	A new ZF Hurth is in the works and a new dampener. As mentioned the vibration has been addressed with a new prop. I appreciate all the input and will post on our success at such time. A few more pics.
	Pinball

ZF Hurth, blood in the bilge.

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