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Limp mode & won't start

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96SNEFI View Drop Down
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    Posted: June-28-2015 at 10:25pm
Ok grand wizards of the interwebs...:)

As my username suggests...96 SN EFI (GT40).

So I dry-land run tested my thermostat with a hose in idle and it opened and the temperature went back down.
So I launch and as I watch the temperature keep creeping up as I cruise along I'm wondering WTH! It hits some magic point and drops into limp mode. Pretty cool function. I limp the thing along for a little ways until I get to the dock. The temperature stays a little under 200 (maybe 210?)
question 1...does dawdling along in limp mode do any damage?

After everything has cooled down...
I tighten everything down yet some more. I remove the thermostat and there's no water in that larger cavity below it. I fill it. I run it around a little and the temperature barely lifts off if at all. Lake is 72°ish. I open the RWP and the blades are all there. Last year I had a brain fart and somehow managed to thrash the impeller. I put in a new one. All seemed good.
I'm curious to see where the problem might be so I take the rwp line off the thermostat housing and remove the coil wire from the coil under that cowling thing on top and start cranking. It's sparking finding ground on something to the left (facing the front of the engine) so that's good. Some water comes out of the hose so that's good.
question 2...is it correct that water would get pumped out the rwp intake at the thermostat housing seemingly from the circulation pump?

I take the thermostat housing off and lo and behold rubber in that little cross pipe from little to big cavities. Extract that thinking hey there we are. Here we go. Put everything back together (yes the coil wire too) and try to start. Crank. The odd single stumble. No turn over. Crap. Now what!?

Here we are the beginning of summer in my neck of the woods and I have a dead boat. I'm about 4 hours from the nearest Nautique dealer with an almost 20 year old trailer of unknown brake condition seeing as how I'm able to just go for short jaunts to the launch. I don't know if anything's bad with the trailer brakes and I do little to no maintence on them for the reasons given. It's frickin' hot out in the blazing 90° heat.

Anyway...thanks for reading my rant. Please...ideas!?

Thanks
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jhersey29 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhersey29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 11:06pm
dawdling along in limp mode do any damage? - yes,, all of your hoses will blister on the inside.

...is it correct that water would get pumped out the rwp intake at the thermostat housing seemingly from the circulation pump?   You lost me.. Tried several times to reread this to make sense. Why did you take the any electronics apart. I'm lost at your logic.

Crap. Now what!? No turn over???? Starter does not turn the motor. You have no spark? Add more specific details using the correct terminology(I'm terrible at that myself).




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-28-2015 at 11:17pm
Thank you for the reply.

Great. I look forward to replacing the collection of pipes and hoses. $$$

I disconnected the coil wire so as not to fire the engine for testing the rwp. Just so I can crank and hopefully see water come up from the rwp. Which I did.
The rwp line connects up at the thermostat housing. Then water presumably flows down into the large line going down and around to the circulation pump. When I had the rwp line disconnected at the thermostat housing and cranked...I also observed water coming out that same intake at the thermostat housing with the rwp line disconnected.

I thought I had written details. Sometimes I get accused of providing too much detail! It cranks. There's spark at the coil. It doesn't catch and run.
If you're terrible then perhaps you might not accuse others :) I'm no expert either.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhersey29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:18am
The hoses are not that expensive. The cheap answer is to push on them. If a hose is soft it is probably toast. If you can easily compress it with your hand it probably has blistered inside. No big deal! Your boat is 19 years old a new set of hoses is pretty cheap.

Ok so there is spark at the coil. How about at the plugs?
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/LIS0/50850/N0665.oap?ck=Search_N0665_-1_-1&pt=N0665&ppt=C0103

What is the fuel pressure?
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SG00/33770/N0665.oap?ck=Search_N0665_-1_-1&pt=N0665&ppt=C0103
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhersey29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:24am
Relative to the thermostat. The thermostat should open at 160 or 143(if you have the wrong one). If the thermostat is closed you won't get water to the circulating pump and the lower thermostat housing. It will mostly be pushed out the upper thermostat housing to the risers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:38am
To jhersey29 at 7:18 my time:
When you talk about hoses, do you mean exhaust? Several years ago I did in fact replace the downpipes and marine exhaust hoses from the riser to the muffler. I hope not to have to do that again as those downpipes are a bit pricey. I seem to recall a couple few hundred. The marine exhaust hoses were easy enough to find and not that expensive. I also replaced riser and manifold gaskets and had the mating edges of both planed out (not sure of the proper terminology). (not the head side though) I even found some old impeller material in the riser. I am aware that the previous owner also had an overheat. The downpipes did show overheating evidence. The rubber lines seemed fine but I replaced them while I was there. I also patched on some fibreglass onto the mating surfaces of the muffler. I had a leak in that area which led me to finding all of this.

I didn't check the plugs as I hadn't touched those after I had a spin with no thermostat. I only pulled the coil wire from the coil so I could crank.

I don't know about fuel pressure. I'm not sure why anything would change there too. I hear the pump on key-on and that the engine ran before I started testing things with just crank.

I wonder if I could use a jump. If the fuel pump pumps, the engine cranks and sparks fly would that not indicate that there is likely sufficient power?

Thanks for your reply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:45am
To jhersey29 at 7:24 my time.
Hmm. That's not what I see. I think (I'm not certain) the water comes from the rwp to the thermostat housing into the little front tube of the thermostat housing that then appears to go down and around to the circulating pump.
I then discovered that I had a piece of impeller in the little passage from the front little tube cavity over to the back larger thermostat area cavity.
I do still wonder why I had water coming out that small tube from the circulating pump while cranking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 2:57am
If you are finding pieces of impeller, its time to replace it. Make sure that it is the Sherwood impeller and not the after-market brand. If the RWP keeps eating impellers, it may be time to rebuild the pump.

From Sherwood:

Engine Model: 302 and 351
Engine Part Number: RA057007
Impeller Kit: 09959K
Minor Repair Kit: 23979
Major Repair Kit: 12665
Inlet Port: 1"
Outlet Port: 1"

JQ
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2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited

Previous
2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow
1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow

Aqua skiing, ergo sum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 11:17am
Thank you for the reply.
Already done immediately after I shredded the last impeller somehow accidentally.

I wonder if I'll have to bite it and open some things up and see where else any other bits of impeller might be. ie. downpipe to circulating pump, circulating pump, output lines to manifolds, manifolds as much as visibly possible, risers as much as visibly possible. I've read here about pieces ending up in the tranny cooler area. How is that possible when the water is supposed to go the other way?

None of this explains why it won't even start though. I'd like it to run so that I can see if I would in fact have to open things up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 11:20am
Have you popped the fuel rail off to confirm the injectors are actually delivering fuel?


'92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 11:32am
Thank you for the reply.

No I've not. I'm not sure how that would be different from what I touched. I had removed the thermostat and went for a short cruise to see what the temperature would do. It appeared to barely move. Maybe it lied to me or it was in fact seeing cold water straight out of the lake.

Indeed, who knows, something else could have coincidentally, unrelated to the overheat decided to give up too.

BTW I also made sure the throttle was up and that the lanyard was in. Maybe those switches have failed, who knows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:15pm
You said you're getting spark at the coil, are you definitely getting spark at the spark plugs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewy2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:20pm
With the coil lead disconnected and cranking the engine you would have flooded the engine. The ECM would have kept firing the injectors with a very long (rich) pulsewidth required for starting.

Pull the plugs and check.

You can disconnect the injector wiring loom at back of engine and turn over to clear any excess fuel still remaining in cylinders.
If you're going through hell, keep going

89 Ski

<a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:27pm
To Bri892001

Thank you for the reply.

I haven't actually checked because it had worked when I went for a spin and all I disconnected was the coil wire at the coil after I went for the spin.

I'm wondering about whatever ground the coil spark found to the left whether that high energy spark has wrecked whatever's there. There's some kind of doodad there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:33pm
To lewy2001:

Thank you for the reply.

I will try that. I had been wondering what effect cranking might have on things. Is there an easy way to identify exactly which plug of this wiring loom to unplug?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhersey29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 12:38pm
By the coil is the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor and Thick Film Ignition Module(TFI-IV). Also in the distributor is a Profile Ignition Pickup sensor(PIP)

Yes I was talking about the exhaust hoses. The host is $18 a foot and you'll need about 5 feet. The 4" hose after the muffler is probably ok. Maybe they are all ok. Give them a squeeze. Soft is bad.

The marine thermostats will have some water flow through them even when closed.    That is probably why you have a trickle and hopefully not because you have impeller pieces. Check all the hoses from the transmission cooler up to the thermostat housing for rubber bits.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 1:17pm
I think the bit about impeller pieces landing in the transmission cooler is left over from the days when cooling hose routing went directly from the hull pickup to the RWP, then looped backed to the tranny cooler before going to the engine.

Either way, it doesn't hurt to check the tranny cooler for debri, as weed and stuff can land in the intake side of it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 1:41pm
Ok

Further to lewy2001
I disconnected the injector plug in the back. Bit of a tight hassle. Cranked. It ran for a few moments. Plugged the injectors back in and cranked and it ran. Whew!
Whether that was an overnight settling of the flooding or that I wasn't adding more fuel to what was already probably there as per lewy2001...I don't care! It's alive! lewy2001 thank you thank you thank you for the splendid idea on the effects of cranking without spark and how to clear a flood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 1:53pm
So carrying on with the overheat effects...

While idling and marvelling that it's alive I went to look out back at the exhaust. I don't have the swim platform on so I can see immediately out the flapper. Obviously lots of bubbles.
I can't say as I've ever noticed this effect (or lack) before but it seems that on an almost rhythmic basis I could sort of imagine that the engine did an ever so slight "foomp" and then through the water I could see an exhaust or kind of jet of propelled "other" water. Then some moments later "foomp" and exhaust. Kinda like a burp. Is this normal?

I ask because my wife was observing on my dry-land warm-up and saw a burst of water come out. She says maybe about 4 or 5 feet out. I think she reported it when I did a small neutral accelleration. I did not do that this morning. Just idle.
I'm obviously, right now, very wary of anything to do with cooling from the overheat. And still wondering about any other impeller pieces anywhere else from last year.

Thanks everyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPASS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 2:35pm
You mean like this:





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 2:56pm
Wow. Nice job. With boat in the water looking out back with the exhaust water flowing out to lake water yes I suppose it could look like that. So are you saying that's normal? Do you imagine a little bump from the engine as it seems to coincide with those burps?
Thanks

Like I say...I'm just ultra-sensitive right now for anything out of possible ordinary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bri892001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 3:12pm
It sounds pretty normal to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 96SNEFI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-29-2015 at 3:56pm
I wasn't sure that I wanted to warm up the engine before leaving today and having to put it away hot but I just had to give it a spin. With Bri892001 saying the video was normal I had to see what would happen.
It warmed up to about 160 and then dropped back down as seems normal for my boat. The thermostat works and apparently water is circulating. Whew!
I am one happy camper.

Perhaps after the season I'll take a bunch of stuff apart and see if I can find any more rubber.

Thanks everyone!
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