DUI Distributor issue |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Posted: August-11-2016 at 4:49pm |
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Hello Fellow Correct Craft Fans,
I’m a new member of your group, but I have been lurking here for the last 6 years, gathering all of your sage advice and recommendations. Your site was recommended by a childhood buddy whom is in the boating industry, and has used the info to rebuild his beautiful 72’ Ski Nautique. Your: “what to look for when buying an older Nautique” guide is invaluable. We have had our 2001 for the last 5 years, and during that time we have replaced the stringers, installed electronic ignition, rebuilt the 4-barrel Holly, replaced all of the hoses/belts/fuel filter-water separator, and cleaned/flushed out the fuel tank. The boat had developed some issues with the transmission cooler leaking water into the bell housing, and was fixed along with replacing the transmission components. During the last two seasons, the boat runs ok below 3000 RPM, but when we try to ski nearer to 34-36 MPH (~3400 RPM), the engine starts cutting out. I had replaced the distributor cap and rotor (ensuring the cap was snug, as I kept the old rubber seal from the old one-the new ones have a crappy, thin cork seal). No change to the performance. I replaced the carb with a brand new Holly 4160 from Summit Racing, and the engine started/idled and ran wonderfully up to 3000 RPM. After reading the wonderful narrative about swapping over to the DUI distributor, I sucked it up and bought one (along with the RR gear). I wanted it to “go on correctly” so enlisted our mechanic to swap/install and do the fine timing/tuning. Some problems arose when at first the DUI was rotating in an oscillatory manner, then as the RPM were increased it settled down and ran really well up above 3000+ RPM. Then noticed the oil pressure going to zero and cut the ignition. Pulled the distributor and noticed the female end of the DUI dizzy shaft (the hexagon) was stripped smooth. UGH! Used a magnet and recovered the metal filings and using a bore-scope noticed that the oil pump shaft is ok. Putting a speed bit on the pump, it spun up and pumped oil, effortlessly. We contacted Performance Distributors and ordered a new shaft. We received one that was not drilled put to receive the drive gear cotter pin, so sent the entire lower part, with the stripped shaft back to then so Scott (their technical expert) could discern the problem. Looking at the stripped segment on the drive shaft depicts not much of (1/4” or so) is engaging the oil pump. Do any of you know how much it should engage? Thanks in advance, Very Respectfully, Ted Rutherford Ps the top photo is the stripped DUI shaft, and the bottom shows the old distributor. |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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Guessing the distributor wasn't seated all the way which I would grill your mechanic over, then find a new mechanic. I'm not sure how much the shaft engages, your old shaft should give a good indication. Sorry to hear about the troubles, we've all been there.
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1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Thanks for the response sir. I will do as you say Todd, and check that it is seated all way. Performance Distributor just called and said "it might be a heat issue, or binding" he replaced the lower piece and is shipping it back. As far as engaging the oil pump 1/4" is plenty according to Scott (the tech advisor at P.D.).
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Hollywood
Moderator Group Joined: February-04-2004 Location: Twin Lakes, WI Status: Offline Points: 13513 |
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Sure is easy to bash the mechanic who is not here.... I have not heard of anyone having engagement issues with their DUI or anyone not seating their distributor either.
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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It's clearly too soft of a metal from DUI or compentcy issues elsewhere. If it's on DUI's end surely there's reports elsewhere online and DUI would know about it. My concern is everyone's a mechanic, and there's no difference in a boat motor than a car motor says the same mechanic. |
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Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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He's a real "mechanic" (I am not). and the owner of boat yard/Marine repair shop up here in Minnesota, which has an outstanding reputation. He has never seen this happen as well... Maybe the oil pump temporarily seized, shearing the inside of the shaft?! The oil pump works now and spins easy. I'll give you folks an up date when we try again.
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Dreaming
Platinum Member Joined: May-21-2010 Location: Tacoma, WA Status: Offline Points: 1870 |
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I just did a DUI swap and there is a specific note in the instrucitons about not using a high volume oil pump ... you don't have one of those do you?
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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I do not know, but will find out sir. I do remember seeing that note, thanks |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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Is the length of the shaft from where it seats in the block
to the gear end the same as the old dissy ? Is the new one seated in the block correctly ? |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Thanks for the reply Waterdog. Yes the length is identical (5" from tip to end of shaft to the base of the distributor that seats on the engine block). when the dizzy is installed it looks "correctly" seated. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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I had an old 4 cyl nova that the oil pump was driven by dizzy thru a roll pin. Left me stranded several times cause it was sludged up & had excessive oil pump load so it sheared the roll pin. . What weight oil are you using? What oil pressure are you getting?
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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From the Performance Distributor website: Topic 2: Excessive Distributor Gear Wear on Ford Worn Ford GearExcessive distributor gear wear can be a problem with Ford engines. Most of the time, the problem is a result from the use of a high volume oil pump. High volume oil pumps put a lot of stress on the distributor and cam gears. A high volume oil pump is not necessary on a street driven engine that turns no more than 7000 rpms. Only extreme racing engines require the high volume pump. If you use the high volume oil pump the following precautions will save your distributor gear from early destruction.(1) Drill a .030″ hole in the lifter/oil galley plug behind the distributor. This will allow additional lubrication on the distributor and cam gears. (2) Install a deeper oil pan. High volume pumps will pull all of the oil out of a stock pan creating a lack of lubrication. (3) Ford oil pump mounting brackets have elongated holes. Due to this, the distributor shaft and oil pump shaft should be aligned so that the distributor turns freely before tightening the mounting bracket bolts. Failure to do this will cause a binding situation, thus damaging the gear. (4) Stock Ford hex oil pump drive shafts are known to vary in length which could cause a bottoming or binding situation. (5) Brass distributor gears can be used to avoid damaging the cam gear. Brass gears are softer and can wear out quicker than the cast gear, but will not cause damage to the cam gear. If using a brass gear, check it occasionally for wear. Talking to Scott (the Performance Distributor Tech Advisor), he said that he had never seen this happen yet either; he was helpful answered many of my layman's questions. |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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351w oil pump is driven by a 5/16 hex key.
Can you get the hex key out of the oil pump. It "should" have a slot for an e-clip to keep the hex from dropping to far down into the oil pump. I know it can be twisted but much, much stronger than the Chevy roll pin. You can even buy a heavy duty, hardened hex oil pump drive key |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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We were not able to get the hex key out. Thanks for the info Waterdog; I will relay this to the gentleman helping me. I sure appreciate all of the input from y'all. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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That clip you're talking about Waterdog goes on the shaft before you install the shaft and the pump from below. It's there to keep the shaft from being able to be removed when pulling the distributor. If you didn't have that clip the shaft could come up enough to come out of the oil pump and then fall down into the oil pan. |
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Waterdog
Grand Poobah Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2020 |
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I lent out my "How to Rebuild Small Block Fords" book - Damn |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Some info for Ted
I took a distributor out of a 351W and took some measurements and Ted's 5 inch measurement from flange to the end of the shaft agreed with mine. From the same flange to the bottom of the gear is about 4 inches. From the seating surface for the flange on the engine block down to the top of the oil pump shaft was 4 7/16 inches which means the shaft sticks 9/16 of an inch into the distributor shaft BUT..................the top roughly 1/4 inch of the oil pump shaft is tapered for the distributor to slide over it easier so that leaves about 5/16 of an inch of the oil pump shaft in contact with the inside the distributor shaft with my "not.terribly precise measurements" since the 1/4 inch tapered part is not in contact. This might be kinda hard to visualize but what it tells me is that your distributor shaft engagement of about 1/4 inch with the oil pump shaft sounds right just like DUI said. The oil pump shaft is hardened steel, I don't know what the distributor shaft is but I bet it's not as hard as the oil pump shaft. So I think like somebody said, either an inferior quality distributor shaft from DUI or your oil pump has issues All my numbers here are rounded off slightly but the end result of about 1/4 to 5/16 inch of engagement between the 2 shafts holds true. |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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KenO, The shaft has to be soft enough to drill the cross hole in it. I have seen them shear off, that's why I think they are probably dead soft. Another reason that I like to turn the gear 90 degrees and redrill the gear only when mounting it. Two holes in the shaft would weaken it too much. For some reason there is no "universal" location for the cross hole. They just slap them on and pin them. A lot of new gears don't have any cross hole in them when new.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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AlfaDon
Senior Member Joined: September-18-2011 Location: San Leandro, Ca Status: Offline Points: 407 |
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When I installed my DUI, it took a fair amount of effort to get the oil pump and dizzy shaft aligned. Once it dropped in, it was golden, but it was not without a fair amount of effort. I assumed it was because the dizzy shaft was so new.
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Dear Keno, thanks for taking all that time to remove your distributor and take those measurements, that does concur with what i saw and what Performance Distributors reported to be normal. You are exactly right sir: the pump shaft is tapered, and does not engage the entire dizzy shaft. When i receive back the "fixed" DUI distributor, i will carefully attempt to reseat. V/R ted |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Duane, the replacement shaft was not drilled, and we did not want to mess it up, so sent it (the whole dizzy) back to P.D. to check/drill and remount gear, so they could determine all was well with no issues...
AlphaDon, one of the things i had asked Scott at Performance Distributors was if it was ok to put a bit of lithium grease in the hex opening, either that or some other type, that would not foul up the oil, if it mixed... He said he saw no problem with doing that... Again, thanks folks for your kind help. Very Respectfully, Ted |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Aw Shucks Ted it was nothing. Actually the amount of engagement between the shafts is one of those things you don't give much though to and my curiosity got the better of me and I just had to know. KenO |
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Orlando76
Grand Poobah Joined: May-21-2013 Location: Mount Dora, FL Status: Offline Points: 3108 |
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I wonder if the difference between the 7k and 10k DUI is a harder shaft (hehe) which could also turn a high volume pump?
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Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
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TedR
Groupie Joined: June-26-2016 Location: Clear Lake, IA Status: Offline Points: 55 |
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Hey Folks, thanks again for the help and insight. The problem is solved! The remounted dizzy shaft came back with the drive gear mounted slightly higher than before, so that the hex engages more of the oil pump drive shaft (length does matter)
just idling the engine, with a some powerful magnets on the oil filter trying to capture any ferrous fillings that might be left after using cleaning out the "dizzy hole". Then oil change and try out on the water. Thanks again Gentle Correct Craft Fans. Very Respectfully, Ted |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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I think that's pretty harsh especially if DUI determined that the gear mounting was questionable. I'm sure Robert Yates has lost an engine or two over the years would you fire him too? Joe had 408 troubles,I would not hesitate for him to touch any of my engines.
I'll never know,but my dad had his Ski Supreme's 351 rebuilt and right after that it split the distributor drive. I wonder now if a high volume pump had been put in. |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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re: sheared drive, I would venture to say that 90 + % of the drag racers are running high volume, high pressure pumps in their Fords. Never heard any complaints. Interesting thought though.
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21171 |
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Hv pumps are definitely harder on dizzy shafts and therefore cam gears. The Windsor oil pump drive and smallish dizzy shaft diameter can be problematic with HV/HP pumps, apparently. Bow tie stuff is much larger and not an issue per the folks I spoke with from Milidon and Melling... I just went through this on my BBC.
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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May be too late too ask but how much is slightly higher? Just curious because Ford has some pretty tight tolerances on the distance from the bottom of the seating flange to the bottom of the gear, see the link below dist gear installation Sounds like a DUI screwup on the original shaft KenO |
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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I've always been taught not to run a high volume pump in a Windsor, simply because they don't really need one. The rationale I was always given was "It ain't a small block Chevy, don't build it like one!"
They can pump the pan dry at high RPM and cause a lot of wear on the distributor gear or twist the pump driveshaft, plus they cost more HP to run. I've seen a lot of guys use a blueprinted stock pump instead of HV in their Windsor builds. |
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