Suspect Starter Relay |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Posted: July-30-2018 at 2:55am |
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Hey all! Hope that you are spending lots of time on the water this summer in your boats!
After starting off fine this summer, my boat would not start for me this evening. I turn the key and get a click, but nothing else. The engine does not turn over at all. I'm suspicious that it is the starter relay, but I find that odd because my relay is only four or five years old. The starter is also only about that old. Assuming it is the relay - What is causing my relays to die? What do I do to test my current relay to know if it is bad? Or, what else could be causing this problem? KRoundy |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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I think I'd be checking/cleaning all the electrical connections from the battery to the relay and the starter including the ground to the block before just assuming it's the relay.
A voltmeter on the various connections when you turn the key will tell you a lot. Depending on the starter, the relay wiring is gonna be different for the old style starter as compared to the newer permanent magnet Ford starters so knowing what you have would help too. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Being a 93 you probably have the newer style starter and this version of the TRB diagram would apply.
It's one he modified from his original, but didn't change the wording in the legend at the lower right Note 1 in this case should say "Ford solenoid type starter" or "permanent magnet starter" |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Kevin,
Last summer and then again this summer, I was having intermediate no cranking on my Tique with the start relay (solenoid) energized. Before pulling the starter and doing a commutator cleanup, I did a quick Ohm check on the relay contacts. You remove the cable going to the starter so you don't send any power to it and then Ohm across the two large studs while the relay coil is energized. You can energize it with the ignition switch or just jumper from the battery cable post to the coil terminal on the relay. I got anywhere from 2 to 7 Ohms telling me the relay contacts weren't in great shape. You should get a near zero Ohm reading. So, it was off to the closest auto parts store for a new relay. I ended up with a genaric "Ford" type 4 pole. I needed the 4 pole since the 302 does have the ballast resistor bypass during cranking. They do make a 3 pole but many parts stores don't stock them. A 4 pole will work if the bypass feature isn't needed. You just don't use the 4th pole. If you do need a relay, go for the higher priced relays since they have higher amp ratings. The relay replace worked and it saved me from having to pull the starter. |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Pete, that is perfect, thanks. That is exactly what I needed. I'm towing the boat back home today, but will get out my multi-meter when I get home and start checking things.
Keno - The electrical connections all "look" clean, but I'll definitely check that out too. I have the suspect 1993 not-so-good-ground situation going on in my dashboard. This would be a good time to upgrade the ground in my dash and also make sure that my current connections are all tight and clean. Kevin |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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Goldcup101
Senior Member Joined: August-27-2016 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 104 |
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I had this earlier this season on my 97. Was intermittent and got rapidly worse. New relay was around $35 from nautiquepartsI think. Problem solved.
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Thanks, Calum. Will be getting out the multimeter tonight to do some checking. I'm guessing it will be the relay. If it is, then the question becomes, "Why is my boat eating relays?"
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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With the help of my friends here, I quickly determined it was the relay. I ordered a new "heavy duty" relay from NautiquePars and my engine is starting like a champ again. Thanks!
Now - why does it smell like it is running so rich? Might be time to finally rebuild that carb... |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Here I am just a couple of months later, and I'm back. I was cleaning up my boat yesterday in prep for taking it out again soon. I thought, "I should just make sure it cranks over." I turn the key and "click". I have grown to hate that sound. I will get out the multi-meter and let you know what I find on the relay. The thing is brand new, so it should read zero when I put power to it, right Pete? If it tests OK, I suppose the next thing is to look at the starter? It's not very old either... Connections are all tight and clean. KENO - where should I be testing voltages? The boat started and ran with gusto in August. Frustrating.
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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The click means you are getting power to the relay coil so you are good there. Now, with the relay energized (key to the start position) read the volts into the relay and then the volts out. It should be close to the same voltage. What condition is the battery in? get a volt reading off it too both with no load and then with the key turned to start.
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Got it. Will do, Pete.
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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If you have the later style starter shown in the diagram earlier in this thread, you have another solenoid mounted on the starter.
It's getting constant power from the battery cable that's hooked to it and also when you turn the key, the "slave solenoid" you recently replaced sends power through the small gauge yellow mustard colored wire on the diagram to the starter mounted solenoid to make the starter work. Your wire might be a different color. I'd check/clean the connections at the starter and all the positive battery cable connections at the starter, the slave solenoid and the battery and then the negative cable at the battery and where it grounds to the engine. If all that's good, maybe the starter itself is the issue even though it's pretty new or maybe the battery cables have corrosion you can't see. If they're original, they might be worth replacing If the wiring is as shown in the diagram, the solenoid you just replaced only has to transmit a very small amount of current and the starter mounted one transmits full starting motor current when you turn the key. |
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Bri892001
Grand Poobah Joined: September-27-2008 Location: Boston MA Status: Offline Points: 4947 |
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I'll just throw it out there that my 93 has the older style starter, without the additional solenoid.
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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OK. I'm back with results:
Battery is new this year and fully charged. It reads 12.54V at rest and 11.84 when I turn the key to start. I'm getting 12.36 V across the relay which of course plunges to almost zero when I turn the key. The solenoid on top of the stater is getting 12.37V at rest and 11.46V when I turn the key. The connections all have zero corrosion. I gave the little yellow mustard connector between the starter relay and the solenoid on top of the starter a scrub. Interestingly, the wire got noticeably warmer as I was messing with it, which tells me juice is flowing through that wire just fine. If you are interested I am getting 10.6V at that mustard connection when I turn the key. One final note - the noise appears to be coming from the starter when I say I hear a clicking sound. It is like it is trying to engage to turn the engine but can't perhaps? It used to be that you could take a starter to a auto parts store and have it tested, but I wonder if they even do that these days... So, what is my prognosis? Dead starter? |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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OK. CRAZY UPDATE!!!!
I was sitting in my boat typing up all the data I just posted. Right as I completed my post and hit "Post Reply" I looked down and saw smoke coming from my starter area! I quickly checked things and found that the solenoid on top of the starter was SMOKING HOT!!!! I think I slightly burned the back of a finger touching it. Note, I was trying to disconnect the small mustard yellow wire, NOT checking for how hot things were with my fingers!!! :) Before I could disconnect anything I looked over and noticed the key was turned to off. The ignition breaker was on. so I switched it to off and the light stayed on. WHAT!?!? Right at that moment the engine actually turned over a little bit on its own! It is possessed! I practically dove into the battery tub and disconnected it. Then, everything was calm. Whew. So now I am sending this follow up with my completely dead boat airing out from the burnt electrical smell and my battery is sitting on the floor in my garage. What is happening!?!? Is that solenoid on top of the starter the culprit? Can I just replace that part or is it one unit? I recall running through starter solenoids in my 1974 Vega GT when I was in high school. |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Kevin, Just as Ken mentioned:
you should only have power on the small yellow wire going to the solenoid on the starter when the key is turned. Can you post a picture on how the new solenoid you replaced on the engine is wired? Sounds like it's been wired as if you have the old style starter without the solenoid? |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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Well, unlike Pete I'll figure you have it wired right since it's worked for a few years
I'd take the starter out and get it tested preferably at an auto electric shop, not a parts store. In a pinch,you could take it to a parts store for a quick and dirty test, you'll probably know right away if the solenoid is bad.when the wires get hooked up for the test. Whether you originally had an issue with the starter mounted solenoid, I think you do now. I think it's been your problem all along, but that's just me thinking from 3000 miles away. The solenoids on the starter are replaceable and pretty cheap. In the automotive world Ford used them from about 1992 and up |
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Mpost
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2018 Location: Monticello, MN Status: Offline Points: 329 |
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+1 on Keno's suggestion.
It sounds to me like the click means the solenoid was trying to engage, and a lot like some of the starters I have had over the years with a dead spot so the motor wont spin. Usually giving it a whack with a hammer or something can get it to spin again. However I don't understand why leaving the key on would make the solenoid and wiring hot, unless something is wrong elsewhere. |
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84 SN Sold 98 SN Lund Pro V 1975 Alumacraft
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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My thought as well and the reason I suggested posting a picture showing the wiring on the solenoid on the engine. |
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rolleronariver
Senior Member Joined: May-24-2016 Location: Rogers, AR Status: Offline Points: 195 |
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Up into the point where you almost burned your boat up, I was going to say it sounds just like when my starter was going out a couple of summers ago. Sometimes I could get out there and it would just fire up with no issues and then sometimes it would just "click". I went through the whole thing looking for corrosion or loose wires. I couldn't find anything. Finally, I felt the starter and it was burning hot. I undid everything and took the starter to O'rielly's and it was toast. Ordered a new one and I haven't had a problem since.
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92 Sport nautique
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woodyelc
Senior Member Joined: February-17-2004 Location: orlando Status: Offline Points: 378 |
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Sounds like the starter is locked up
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woodyelc
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rolleronariver
Senior Member Joined: May-24-2016 Location: Rogers, AR Status: Offline Points: 195 |
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There's still another issue though. The starter might have caused that issue but something else is wrong if it was trying to start with the ignition switch off and the key off.
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92 Sport nautique
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Mpost
Senior Member Joined: July-05-2018 Location: Monticello, MN Status: Offline Points: 329 |
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Agree with Pete.
KRoundy wrote "Before I could disconnect anything I looked over and noticed the key was turned to off. The ignition breaker was on. so I switched it to off and the light stayed on. " Pretty sure the Ign. light comes as soon as key is on and before you turn it to start. Is there a relay involved to turn on that light? Its like the key switch or something else in the circuit (relay) stuck in the start mode, And a possible bad starter. |
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84 SN Sold 98 SN Lund Pro V 1975 Alumacraft
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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The engine is gonna turn over like it did with the key in OFF if the solenoid contacts welded themselves together. It just turns over and won't start since there's no power to the ignition system.
The starter mounted solenoid in this case would be my main suspect.since that solenoid is handling the high starter current and the slave solenoid is handling minimal current. A bad starter drawing high current could cause the welding together of the solenoid contacts It's always fun having to get a battery cable disconnected in that situation |
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Duane in Indy
Platinum Member Joined: October-26-2015 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1578 |
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Another vote for my Battery Disconnect Switch in all my boats |
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Keep it as original as YOU want it
1978 Mustang (modified) |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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I have a lot of things to put right:
1. The yellow wire had no voltage to it until I turned the key. 2. I pulled the starter and it smelled awful. I'm pretty certain that it welded the contacts together. Whatever happened the result smells pretty toxic. I'd be surprised if I miss-wired something. But to satisfy the curious: |
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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Here is the starter before I removed it:
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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KRoundy
Platinum Member Joined: August-23-2010 Location: Lake Stevens Status: Offline Points: 1702 |
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And because I love to upload photos - here is the engine when I purchased it and was pulling things apart while documenting how everything was laid out. Looking through these it reminded me how incredibly dirty everything was when I purchased it. :)
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Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique
Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Kevin,
You satisfied my curiosity. The solenoid on the engine is wired correctly. Time for a new starter or a rebuild. |
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KENO
Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11061 |
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It looks to me like that paint on the starter body is blistered from heat and also the female spade type connector at the end of the yellow/red wire looks like it melted some of the heat shrink that was covering it. On many of these starters that male spade type connection is held on with a nut and it can be removed from the solenoid and a ring type connector used in it's place with a nut holding it good and tight to avoid any bad contact/arcing issues. |
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