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Distributor for EFI Chrysler 440 |
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tleed 
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 Topic: Distributor for EFI Chrysler 440Posted: December-12-2020 at 2:17am |
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I could use some information. I recently picked up a marine Chrysler 440, thanks to another member here. (Thx, Erik!) I’d love to put fuel injection on it. I’ve looked at the Edelbrock system, which is multiport and uses an O2 sensor. I called Edelbrock tech support to see if they are aware of any reason why their system can’t be used in a reverse-rotation marine application. They said there isn’t, even though they don’t advertise that it will. However… …with the benefit of additional online reading, I discovered that the distributor might not last long running in a reverse rotation application. Apparently that’s because Mopar’s reverse rotation distributors had a special collar affixed to the body that holds the oil pump drive gear down. It’s necessary because in the reverse rotation application that gear rises, pushing the distributor shaft up. The collar opposes that force. It’s not necessary in the normal rotation application, because that downward force is resisted elsewhere. Incidentally, some normal rotation Mopar distributors used the same collar. Maybe Chrysler just did that for supply or manufacturing purposes, because it was unnecessary in those motors. Anyway, from pictures I’ve seen, it looks like the collar can be removed. I have a spare small block distributor that has the collar, but not a big block one. Apparently there was some variation in distributor shaft length between small and big-block Mopars. And maybe even between forward and reverse rotation big block distributors. The distributor that came with my 440 doesn’t have the collar. So I’m not even sure it can be used in a reverse rotation motor. Is there anybody here who can provide measurements for the various marine distributors? I need both the shaft length and diameter(s) of the distributor body where the collar mounts. Or can anybody here tell me if you can swap a factory Chrysler collar onto an Edelbrock EFI distributor? The Edelbrock system needs the Edelbrock distributor because that’s where it gets the necessary engine rotation information. If you tried to convert an original points-driven marine Chrysler big block distributor with a Pertronix kit (like I did my small block 318), you’d need to get engine rotation information from elsewhere, like from a crank sensor. That seems like it would require a lot of re-engineering or reprogramming. Thinking creatively, I suppose reversing the engine to normal rotation is an option. It’s a fresh rebuild & not in the boat at the moment, so the cam could be swapped relatively easily. The boat is a 19-foot ‘68 Correct Craft Wildcat. Is there offset between the prop and rudder that would affect rudder performance if the rotation were reversed? I’m aware there’s lots of discussion elsewhere about why so many boats used reverse rotation motors back in the day. Seems like few do now, right? Is that just because they’re bigger and carry more mass, which moots any benefit from reversing the motor? Or can I reverse the rotation of this boat to forward (follow that logic!) without noticeable side effects? Any help appreciated. Thomas |
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: December-12-2020 at 4:35am |
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Thomas. I can add my 2 cents
My RR 67 Chrysler 318 uses a collar And I use a pertronix, the tip of the pertronix shaft is longer than needed for a standard rotation no collar Then when raised up by RR collar still reaches gear slot. You need collar yes to hold down gear. Pertronix will spin either direction You could probably measure from top of gear to base manifold, add collar thick and enough tang to seat into gear = length needed You maybe right about collars on standard rotation engine, so they could use all‘marine’ longer shafted distributor I think trying to change rotation is crazy but creative New cam, crank, distributor gear, Propeller My old 318 distributor shaft length are probably useless for a 440 But I’m jealous of your 440 Good luck |
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KENO
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Posted: December-12-2020 at 3:07pm |
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Maybe you've seen the link below.........maybe you haven't. I guess the only way to find out is to click on it.  It might have some useful measurements and information for your RR 440 I won't ask any silly questions like " is that a USCG approved Edelbrock kit ?" I figure you bought the boat in the link below |
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tleed
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Posted: December-16-2020 at 11:51am |
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Yes, I snagged the Wildcat from Erik. :) It was just a little over 100 miles from me, which qualifies for “local” in my mind. Couldn’t bear to see it “exported” somewhere far away, like TX or CA.
Yes, I’ve already read the posts at the first link in the previous post. Great info there, so thanks for making sure I didn’t miss it. Life would be perfect if I could just put the collar from of one of my small block reverse rotation distributors on the new distributor that comes with the Edelbrock EFI kit. But at the moment there are key dimensions I don’t have, such as the length of the Edelbrock shaft and the relevant diameters of the parts where the collar mounts to either/both of the Mopar & Edelbrock distributors. I presume that the Edelbrock distributor is sized to fit in the 440 block hole. So perhaps the collar should fit, diameter-wise. But it would be nice to have the pertinent sizes in hand so I could compare knowledgeably, as opposed to plunking down 2 grand to order a whole kit just to see if the distributor will work. Anybody here know if the distributor hole is the same size on both small block & big block Chryslers? Hmm.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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fanofccfan
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Posted: December-16-2020 at 4:30pm |
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Thomas |
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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Gary S
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Posted: December-16-2020 at 5:57pm |
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FYI Bill I believe what your looking for is called a Navy top
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tleed
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Posted: December-17-2020 at 12:30am |
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I’d happily do it if it would be something helpful, but all I got was the top frame w/o any fabric. I’ll look and see if the frame looks like anything that would be helpful for you to have a pic of. And the prior owner called it a bimini top, not a “navy top”. But I sure can’t vouch for whether he was speaking precisely or broadly.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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fanofccfan
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Posted: December-17-2020 at 8:29am |
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Gary-not exactly what i had in mind but close. I do not want it to be a totally enclosed. I would like to have what came with my boat originally.
Thomas-he said the same about no fabric, frame only. Maybe I am imagining this item to be more than it actually was.
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2004 196 LE Ski 1969 Marauder 19 1978 Ski
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KENO
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Posted: December-17-2020 at 9:29am |
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I'd figure that if you googled "convertible top for boat" you'd find what you're looking for mixed in with all those newfangled Bimini tops that'll also show up in the search.
It's pretty much what Gary showed (on lots of them the side windows and enclosed back were optional) CC called it a convertible top in their brochures from back then.
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67 ski nat
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Posted: December-18-2020 at 8:58am |
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So I have an extra original 318 RR marine distributor and collar in the attic
Let me know if I can measure something for you It’s possible a automotive distributor is shorter than my marine RR, Wish I had a 440 awesome |
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tleed
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Posted: January-14-2021 at 5:55pm |
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I have a fresh load of ignorance to inject into this topic. I rooted around in my shed and came up with a reverse rotation 340 distributor with collar and the 440 distributor that's currently paired with my 440. The 440 distributor doesn't currently have a collar, so I'm suspecting that it's a later addition or change. Can't verify that back through prior owners, though.
Using my best redneck engineering research tools (a screwdriver & eyeballs), I took the collar off the small block distributor and put it on the 440. Diameter-wise, it fits just fine, both on the 440 distributor, and down in the distributor hole in the 440 block. So, obviously Chrysler had a one-size-fits-all approach to the diameters. So far, so good. And my eyeballs tell me the distributor shaft diameter and flat-machined portion at the end are all the same size. So it's going to engage with the oil pump drive shaft just fine. So far, so good. But… …with the collar on, the 440 distributor shaft doesn't engage in the oil pump drive shaft/gear. So there's a length issue. The collar is machined with an offset, such that it appears to jack up the distributor 5/8" but because of the offset, it's only half that length, or 5/16". (Those are measurements taken with a degree of accuracy that would drive a machinist to drink, but they're close enough to be helpful for the immediate purposes.) But that's enough to prevent engagement. It also appears that small block & big block collars must be different lengths. I didn't measure exactly, but it appeared to me that the small block collar, although the correct diameter, didn't extend down into the block far enough to reach the oil pump gear. If it can't do that, it's useless. Maybe it has to do with deck height, too, as a 440 is a "raised-block" big block. Can't verify that, though, as I don't have a plain "B" block around anywhere. But, I imagine a big block collar would be just fine. Anybody have a spare anywhere? Or know a source? Pretty sure that's not an item in current production. So that raises a few questions: 1) Does anybody out there have a reverse rotation 440 with a collar? 2) Does anybody know whether reverse rotation distributors had a longer shaft, whether large or small block? 3) If #2 is true, is it the same for the big blocks? 4) How difficult would it be to buy a new distributor & swap out the shaft for a longer one? I'm sure there are other pertinent questions. To review, the purpose here isn't just to find a 440 distributor. I'm trying to figure out what, if any modifications, are necessary to fit a collar to the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 EFI distributor so it can run backwards w/o self-destructing. If that can be done, their system can be used in a reverse rotation installation. I took a pic of my distributors, but I couldn't figure out how to post it here. Hmm.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-14-2021 at 9:25pm |
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Yes a RR 318 original ‘marine’ distributor shaft using a collar is longer (than auto or a stnd rot)
Yes collar should touch top of gear to hold it down Call pertronix just to pick there brain, and see if they make a 440 marine RR The manager in design I spoke to knew about shaft length, said they recently made change to fit all rotation |
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tleed
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 12:27am |
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Thx for the suggestion. I'll give Pertronix a call to see what info I can get out of them. But I can't use a Pertronix distributor. The issue is that the Edelbrock system needs an rpm signal from somewhere. Modern computerized systems use a toothed crank wheel and crank position sensor for that. It's extremely accurate, because it tells the computer not only how fast the engine is turning, but also exactly where it is in the rotation, in relation to the rest of the rotating parts.
It's not as inherently accurate, but to reduce parts & simplify installation, the Edelbrock system takes that reading from the distributor. I don't know what magic parts & programming that make that happen, but unless it's a super-easy swap, I'm not sure a different brand dizzy would be an easy solution. I am sure it's probably pricey, since you'd effectively have to buy 2 whole distributors to make that happen. Figuring out how to make Edelbrock's dizzy work with just an extra part or two just sounds cheaper. So if it's as simple as talking the Pertronix folks out of a longer shaft (and collar?) that would fit seamlessly into an Edelbrock body, along with the rest of the factory Edelbrock parts, shazam! That would be a welcome solution. When I spoke to the Edelbrock people, they didn't know much about longer dizzy shafts, which is pretty understandable, since the marine crowd isn't on their radar.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 7:33am |
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10-4. Understand what your doing
Pertronix does speak ‘long shaft’ marine Have you talked with Harry’s marine They rebuild custom made Chrysler marine distributor too. Harry’s May have good info too. |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 7:36am |
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+1 (860) 227-4296 I think this is senior Harry’s number
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tleed
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 2:49pm |
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Apparently that Harry sold the business 7-8 years ago. They referred me to Rod at R & R Marine & I left a message there. There are multiple "Harry's Marine" businesses on the net that aren't the right one.
Does anybody here have a spare big block collar, or source for one? Apparently that's an elusive part. I called Edelbrock again today. They tried every way they could to tell me they can't validate whether their distributor will run in a boat or backwards. The best I could get out of the tech guy I talked to today about changing out the shaft in their EFI distributor is that you can take it apart. He wouldn't refer me to anybody who had dimensions, or any info about whether they have a longer shaft from another distributor that will swap in. He did tell me their distribution warehouse is in Olive Branch, MS, and suggested I ask MSD for distributor info, "since they're all the same". Why MSD would want to stick their neck out with info about Edelbrock's distributors, when Edelbrock has them "on the shelf" and doesn't want to tell me about them escapes me…?
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 3:39pm |
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(860) 399-6165 try this number
I talked with the correct Harry just last year Edelbrock should send you a free trial distributor. Then they would know |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 3:43pm |
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I have all info at home. Look tonight
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KENO
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 4:07pm |
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I have a little info for you that you may or may not want to hear or believe
You're worried about whether the distributor can rotate backwards, you don't need to worry because it rotates CCW on your 440 big block whether it's standard rotation or reverse rotation. Kinda like the 318 like you have in the other boat, only the distributor rotates CW regardless of the engine rotation.in the small block LM engines and CCW in the big blocks regardless of engine rotation It's just a triggering device for the black magic box in the Edelbrock injection kit. If you asked Edelbrock, they'd probably tell you that they don't make distributors, but they buy them from somebody else for this kit. That somebody else would most likely be MSD from the looks of the distributor. Maybe MSD can help you after all if you talk to them And if I was Edelbrock why would I want to tell you that a system designed for automotive use and not USCG approved or advertised for marine use, that you want to modify for your use will or will not work? You seem to understand the reason for the collar being to absorb upward thrust due to the reverse cut cam and oil pump drive gears. The reverse cut gears keep the distributor and oil pump going in the same direction as on a normal rotation engine like mentioned earlier. As far as Harry's goes........somebody here on the forum did some business with them this past summer or so, buying an oil pump intermediate shaft of the right length for his RR 318. If I remember right it was used but at least they had the part. I can probably dig up that thread |
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KENO
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 4:21pm |
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Here's the thread in the link, same place that 67 Ski Nat sent you to is in a link in that thread.
Same phone number as his second posted number 860 399 6165
I imagine you asked if they had a collar |
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tleed
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 4:55pm |
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Lemme get this straight: in a reverse rotation setup, the crank & cam go "backwards", but the distributor goes the same direction as the "forward" rotation setup? I suppose that's because rotation is reversed in the cam/oil pump gear, huh? So that's why the plug wire order gets reversed on a reverse rotation engine? To match the firing order to the direction of the crank/pistons…?
I suppose that's why the oil pump drive shaft rises on the reverse rotation setup, but not the standard rotation setup? Doesn't change the fact that my distributor is supposed to be set up for reverse rotation, but didn't come with a collar. I did manage to find and order a big block collar from a marine parts supplier today. Man on the phone said it was the last one they have. I'm holding my breath to see whether it's a real collar or an inventory mistake. The Edelbrock guy kinda hinted today that they use an MSD or MSD-derived distributor. I think I'm down to the fact that the main question left is how easily you can swap out a distributor shaft for a longer one in an "Edelbrock" EFI distributor. Of course I understand why they can't say it will work in a marine application. They haven't done the design, testing, and certification to stand behind that representation. Pesky lawyers would take a bite out of them if they strayed from that script & someone lost an eyeball. But that doesn't mean someone else can't make it happen in a one-off situation…safely. And thanks for the the info & pointers. It's all very helpful.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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tleed
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 5:36pm |
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Pertronix was a dry hole. They don't even have a big block distributor of any kind.
I left a message with Harry's. Talking to the MSD guy was scary. He made it sound like a distributor shaft has all kinds of special cuts & machining in it for things like keyways, snap rings, etc. But, then, he also said taking one apart isn't impossible. He also said the shaft diameter on the Mopar dizzy they sell for their EFI setup is .500. Hmm. Elsewhere I'm told Mopar factory dizzy shaft diameters were either .484 or .491. It's fun sifting through information to try to figure out what what's real and what's really misleading. I think I'm going to start a new thread about the potential to "reverse" the rotation on a Correct Craft boat.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 6:24pm |
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I bet you could have a new longer shaft machined on a CNC for less than reversing motor components
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-15-2021 at 8:03pm |
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I could have not collected all the Chrysler marine parts without that ‘marine parts express’ schematic and numbers
Do you have schematic and numbers or LM440 manuals I can not find a schematic diagram on net |
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KENO
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Posted: January-16-2021 at 7:00am |
I think you got it straight. |
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Air206
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Posted: January-16-2021 at 8:09am |
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Ok, I'll muddy the water some more...
Have you thought of DUI? It is a better performance solution and Performance Distributors will build you one. I looked into it for the AT Skier re-build. It was only a little more than their off-the-shelf units and it simplifies your life. |
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tleed
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Posted: January-16-2021 at 10:19am |
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I looked up the DUI. They're in Memphis, which is also where one of Edelbrock's warehouses is. Curious coincidence, or conspiracy?
Since my last post, I had an elderly gentleman who's apparently been around Chrysler marine parts for decades. He looked up part numbers and advised me that the distributor I have in hand that came with my engine is an automotive distributor (Part #2875362), as I suspected. Part numbers for the Prestolite marine distributor a 440 should have are 2875894 for the points distributor, and 4142730 for the later electronic distributor. But the more puzzling thing he told me is that there's only one marine 440 distributor and one shaft length. He said the reverse rotation setup—although it uses a collar, just like the small block—doesn't take a longer-shaft distributor. The small block isn't the same, apparently. The small block collar sets the dizzy out far enough that it can't engage the oil pump drive w/o a longer shaft. He also told me that the 440 collar sets the dizzy out 3/4". Again, how that makes any sense, I don't understand. If you look at the small block collar, the outside of it is about 5/8" thick. But the inside of it is machined out, so the distributor offset is much less. Apparently either the big block collar is substantially different, or he isn't aware that the collar doesn't push the dizzy out as much as it might otherwise appear. Potentially it could be machined that way, I suppose. I just can't verify that. And it makes me wonder why Chrysler didn't make the small block collar the same way. If the big block reverse rotation engine with a collar takes the same dizzy with the same shaft length as a standard rotation setup, then I don't have a problem with the Edelbrock dizzy. Hooray! In a few days I'll have one of those big block collars in my hand and I can answer that question myself.
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Thomas
1974 Southwind 18 with 318 cubic inches of reverse rotation roller cam "Moparvation" |
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-16-2021 at 10:49am |
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Good info. Sounds like your getting closer to solving mystery
I heard some twin engine boat with RR and stnd rot power, used collars and long shaft on both engines just so parts were interchangeable (collar for no reason on stnd) |
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8122pbrainard
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Posted: January-16-2021 at 10:52am |
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Way in the back of my memory, I seem to think the collar was added to handle the RR upward thrust. Am I off on this thinking?
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67 ski nat
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Posted: January-16-2021 at 11:04am |
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You are exactly right. The gear will rise up.
Collar allows body of dizzy to hold down instead of the shaft |
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tleed wrote: