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2002 GT40 Turns over, Wont Run

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    Posted: April-25-2021 at 8:33pm
I pulled our 2002 Ski Nautique out of storage today, dropped it in the lake, hit the starter and it would turn over but not fire..  Over the winter I had the mechanic replace the speakers and headunit along with a few other things. While they were testing the stereo they didn't have the battery in the boat but instead powered it via battery charger. I was there when they powered it up and it clearly didn't have enough amps but they never tried to fire the boat. I have no idea if that impacted this. Never the less I started to troubleshoot and have done the following:
- Checked positive and negative battery cables, both are tight and showing 12 volts
- Tested the fuse on the positive battery cable, it both looks good and is flowing 12 volts
- Tested lanyard, it is showing good continuity 
- Tried to press the three breakers on the back of the engine, all three appear ok
- Tested continuity of the 60 AMP breaker, it was fine

When I press the start button the boat wakes up but I don't hear the pump priming. Any other ideas? 

I don't know where the pump is (still learning the boat) nor can I figure out where to jumper the relays to see if those are bad. I am open to ideas/suggestions. Pictures help if you have them, I have been reading threads to troubleshoot but am at a bit of a loss at this point. 

Thank you
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 12:19am
First thing I would look at is the fuel pump relay near the starter relay.  There are 2 relays next to each other that are identical.  Most will tell you to replace both at the same time.

Read this thread:


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Thank you,  heading to Napa in 3 hours to pick up two new ones. Will test tonight to see if the pump fires. 


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New relays... didn't change anything

Just pulled down wiring diagram..time to start tracing

any other hints of direction would be great
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsts2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 5:17pm
Tested more... I can hear a clicking from the back when I have power on and I take the lanyard on and off so I have isolated that really isn't a problem. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 6:48pm
You can isolate the problem to fuel delivery fairly quickly. Try squirting 1-2 tablespoons of gasoline into the throttle bore. If the engine fires up (momentarily) on that that, it’s a good indication to look in the direction of fuel delivery—starting with the FCC and the high/low fuel pumps.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 8:59pm
What engine do you have?  GT40 or GM? 5.0 or 5.7?

If you have access to a fuel pressure gauge, that will also tell you very quickly if there is a pump issue (high or low pressure pumps)...

Going off my GT40 (should be the same basic fuel delivery system even if GM), the high pressure pump is inside the FCC.  The low pressure pump (both are electric) is probable under your FCC, but you should be able to follow the inlet hose to the FCC back to the low pressure pump.

You can also pull a spark plug wire and get it close to ground and turn over the engine (the end of the spark plug wire should be no more than about 1/4" from a good ground surface.  If it sparks, then I'd go back to fuel.

Between the two GT40s I've had, I have more than 2,000hrs experience.  I've never had an ignition issue once.  I've had several fuel-related issues, but all have been fairly easy to diagnose.

I have a key; not the push button dash pod, so I don't know how/when the pumps turn on before you start it.  With a keyed start switch, when you turn the ignition on (first position from off), the pumps both go on for a second or two (you can hear them with the engine cover up) and then stop.  They start again when you turn the starter (of course you can't hear them then (although you could put a volt meter on the positive side of connector to either of the pumps and to ground and see if you get 12 volts when the pumps should be on).

There is a jumper you can use to manually turn the pumps on, but if you don't have a GT40, I don't know if it will be the same or not.

You said you hear a clicking sound when you connect and disconnect the safety lanyard.  What relay is that flipping?  Since my '97 has a key, if the safety lanyard is disconnected, my starter turns, but there is no power to the fuel pumps/ignition (or both--I'll have to test and see if it kills both or just the fuel pumps).

I also need to mention (sorry to say) that it makes me a bit nervous that your repair shop used only a battery charger to power the electronics.  Most battery chargers are notoriously electronically noisy; they are not made for powering electronics.  They are fine for charging batteries and maybe running motors or lights, but not good for electronics.  They are okay when there is a battery in place because the battery acts as a sort of capacitor/filter of some of the electronic noise.  Even your alternator makes noise; it's never a good idea to disconnect your battery while your engine is running and power everything from just the alternator.  I won't get into more detail here, but you've got an electronic dash pod.  I don't know what all is involved in the dashboard electronics to enable entering code, start and stop buttons, but I would be very careful with the power supply I use for any electronics.  If I need to power any electronics in my boat or cars when the main battery is out, I always use a battery-operated jumper box.  Since the power source from them is a battery and therefore completely clean DC (vs the inverted AC from a battery charger or even an alternator), I know I'm not going to harm any electronics.

Let us know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsts2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 9:23pm
Thanks for all the tips.. I am 100% with you on the battery charger. Was not ideal and I am quite nervous that could have caused the problem. 

The engine is a GT40 and I believe the pump(s) is/are not working, I don't hear them prime when I turn power on. I do believe it was the relay clicking when I pulled the lanyard. 

 I just pulled the lead to the top pump and it is getting power but appears only to be four volts. When I pull the lanyard it goes to zero, put it on, back to four volts. When I crank it goes down to three volts.  

I was looking at the jumper on one of the threads but honestly I am struggling a bit where to jump. Do I jump it off one of the relay connections? 

Thanks for the continued support

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsts2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 9:31pm
One other note, when I picked up the boat the positive battery terminal had come off the positive battery wire. I reconnected it (twice) but if I am only getting four volts I am wondering if that is the problem, not enough wires providing connection. Will try to reconnect that terminal again with more clean connections and see if that helps. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 10:12pm
Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

Thanks for all the tips.. I am 100% with you on the battery charger. Was not ideal and I am quite nervous that could have caused the problem. 

The engine is a GT40 and I believe the pump(s) is/are not working, I don't hear them prime when I turn power on. I do believe it was the relay clicking when I pulled the lanyard. 

 I just pulled the lead to the top pump and it is getting power but appears only to be four volts. When I pull the lanyard it goes to zero, put it on, back to four volts. When I crank it goes down to three volts.  

I was looking at the jumper on one of the threads but honestly I am struggling a bit where to jump. Do I jump it off one of the relay connections? 

Thanks for the continued support

1. Sorry for not noticing that your topic said GT40....ignore all that I said about a GM...... Confused
2. I didn't understand (your second post) about the battery terminal/connector.  A picture would help.  Where are you measuring the voltage?  If your starter is turning normally, then there shouldn't be any problem with your battery connector.  Of course, in addition to the big red positive cable at the battery that goes directly to the starter, you have a secondary smaller gauge cable that powers everything else.  But if that was poor, the starter solenoid wouldn't have sufficient power to throw the starter solenoid to turn the engine over.  Where are you measuring 4 volts?  4 volts anywhere indicates a problem when your starter is still able to turn over (so it is getting 12 volts).
3. Fuel pump jumper:  Let me dig up some pictures, etc. so you know which to jump.  I've got them somewhere on my laptop or back up drive; just have to find them (this evening).
4. I'll also go check the voltage to the high pressure pump (connector at top of FCC).  It should be 12v.

That 4v has got me confused.  Let me know where you're measuring it.  Since the starter will turn over and therefore has 12 volts (or close enough), but you are measuring 4volts elsewhere, it would make sense that the fuel pumps wouldn't run (the relays might fire with 4 volts, but a click is all you'd hear).

Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

One other note, when I picked up the boat the positive battery terminal had come off the positive battery wire. I reconnected it (twice) but if I am only getting four volts I am wondering if that is the problem, not enough wires providing connection. Will try to reconnect that terminal again with more clean connections and see if that helps. 

Do you mean that the wire from the cable had come out of the cable terminal that clamps onto the battery post?  A picture would help; I want to know where you're measuring 4 volts on what wire coming off the battery.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 10:30pm
The first picture is the jumper connector near the breakers.  You need to pull it out of the holder.

Apologies, but insert is putting the below photo on it's side.  What you see as the top of the picture should be on the right side of the picture.  I tried cropping, etc, and it just keeps inserting it sideways.






Once you pull the terminal out of the holder and hold it towards you, you'll see that it has a steep slope on the left side from the top, and a less steep slope on the right.  The far left (steep slope) terminal is the one you want to tap (that salmon wire is my tap to ground).  When you ground it, it flips the fuel pump relays and the pumps should both be heard turning on.  If you hear the relay but not the pumps, then it's most probably a voltage thing.  I'll go confirm the high pressure pump is getting 12v on my boat, but let us know about the 4 volt issue.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsts2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 10:39pm
Thanks! 

For the 4v I pulled the power cable off the Fuel Pump (front of engine, Port side) and put my multi-meter in those connection. I was trying to see if the fuel pump was getting power. Is that not the correct spot to measure voltage? 

Per your point #4 below, I think that is the same cable I used to measure voltage. Dark here now but can work to get a picture in the morning. 


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Got it, appears to be the relay on the starboard side. For the jumper wire, did you just make one and ground that to the spot the relay is mounted to? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsts2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-26-2021 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by slmskrs slmskrs wrote:

Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

One other note, when I picked up the boat the positive battery terminal had come off the positive battery wire. I reconnected it (twice) but if I am only getting four volts I am wondering if that is the problem, not enough wires providing connection. Will try to reconnect that terminal again with more clean connections and see if that helps. 

Do you mean that the wire from the cable had come out of the cable terminal that clamps onto the battery post?  A picture would help; I want to know where you're measuring 4 volts on what wire coming off the battery.  

Yes, the red positive wire that connects to the Positive side of the battery. The cables had come undone from the terminal connector. I made sure the large (10 gauge?) wire for the starter was in there as well as the smaller cable that has a fuse on it. To your point, I thought the smaller wire powered the rest of the boat and it does seem to be providing sufficient power as everything else seems to be working. 

The other question is if the new radio could have a short or be pulling voltage. I can't imagine why but that is the only other thing that would have changed. 

Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 12:18am
Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

Got it, appears to be the relay on the starboard side. For the jumper wire, did you just make one and ground that to the spot the relay is mounted to? 

I put a blade connector on the end of the wire that I plugged into the connector (the one you see in the picture).  The other end I put an alligator clip on it and just attached it to a bolt (any handy bolt on the engine).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 12:23am
Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

Thanks! 

For the 4v I pulled the power cable off the Fuel Pump (front of engine, Port side) and put my multi-meter in those connection. I was trying to see if the fuel pump was getting power. Is that not the correct spot to measure voltage? 

Per your point #4 below, I think that is the same cable I used to measure voltage. Dark here now but can work to get a picture in the morning. 

Yes, to check power to the pump, that is the correct place.  I thought you said when you measured 4v, it was also near the battery, not just at the pump harness.  I'll run out in a bit and check the voltage on mine but I'm sure it will be 12 volts when the pumps run.  I assume the rest of your electronics and accessories (stereo, blower, lights, horn, etc.) all are working correctly with sufficient voltage (I always turn my blower on; I can tell the state of my battery by the speed in which it blows).

When you jump the fuel pump relay connector to ground, you should hear the relay and the pumps should turn on.  If not (and all of your other accessories work (regular voltage), then I'd look at all of the breakers again and confirm voltage on both sides of the breaker terminals.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 2:33am
Okay, I confirmed that you should be getting 12 volts (or near that depending on the charge on your battery) when you measure from the + side of the connector to the top of the FCC (where the high pressure pump is) when the relay is tripped (either by turning on your 'ignition', or by jumping the terminal to ground).

If you jump it and the relay possibly clicks but the voltage at the pump harness is still 4v, I'd revisit the battery terminal connector.  So as you said, fix it (maybe get a new terminal that will have good connection with both the red large gauge wire to the starter as well as the secondary one that powers everything else), and yes, please post a picture of your battery terminal.  

Assuming your battery connection is good, you need to start checking voltages to see whether you have 12 volts back to relays.  Assuming you have an accessory plug (cigarette lighter), I'd next check the voltage there since that's a simple/easy check to see if you have 12v in the dash (or wherever your accessory plug is).  Then you need to just start checking various connections.  I'd probably disconnect the battery, then open up / unbolt/open up the bracket where the breakers are to get underneith them, and then reconnect the battery and check those terminals to ground to see what voltage you have.

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Thanks!

Ok, some new information. I cleaned the terminals and the cables and was able to verify 12v across the following areas:
- cigarette lighter
- 60 amp breaker
- across leads of fuel pump relay (pulled plug out of relay)

I am still not getting voltage to fuel pump. I believe i was reading my multi-meter incorrectly last night and was getting .04 volts at the fuel pump. Suggests maybe the relay again? 

I attempted to jump it the relay but the picture appears to be different and I wasn't really successful. These are the pictures from the back of the boat:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 11:43am
Your not jumping the relay your jumping the STO connector. Put the relays back in and look for that connector just above the relays, upper right 3rd picture up from the ones you last posted. It unplugs from its cover which stays on the ecm/breaker plate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 11:53am
It looks to me like slmskrs is showing you how to ground the STO terminal with a jumper and you're trying to maybe do some jumpering at the connector for the fuel pump relay.

The picture below is yours with an arrow and a line drawn in

If you check for voltage at the terminal that the Red arrow is pointing to, you should have about 12 volts between that terminal on the connector and a good ground on the engine.

If you don't have voltage there, it's time to go backwards to see where the voltage stops.

Is it safe to assume you're using the 310 page manual, page 6-8 for a wiring diagram?

If you do have voltage there, then you can put a jumper between the two terminals with the Blue line drawn in, That will put 12 volts to the pumps and they should run. (just a short wire with 2 male spade terminals will do for the jumper) This bypasses both the ECM relay and the fuel pump relay unlike jumpering the STO terminal

That'll tell you the pumps aren't dead at least, but still leaves a few different reasons to explore as to why the pumps aren't getting power Wink






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Well shoot. Thanks for the heads up. Ok, on it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsts2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 12:11pm
Ok, feel like an idiot about the STO connector. Just ran out there and jumped it, fuel pumps fired! 

Assume that does mean relay? I will replace both if so. 
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Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

If you check for voltage at the terminal that the Red arrow is pointing to, you should have about 12 volts between that terminal on the connector and a good ground on the engine.

If you don't have voltage there, it's time to go backwards to see where the voltage stops.

Huge help here as well. I did check the voltage at the red arrow, it was 12 volts so I felt good there was power there. 

You all are life savers 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

Ok, feel like an idiot about the STO connector. Just ran out there and jumped it, fuel pumps fired! 

Assume that does mean relay? I will replace both if so. 

Haven't you already replaced both relays (The ECM and the fuel pump relays) with new ones?


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There was confirmation from the mechanic that he did and it didn't change anything. But I didn't see him do it and now I am questioning if he actually did both.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 1:19pm
I'm pretty reasonably really sure that the grounding of the STO connector causing the pumps to run is telling you that both relays are good and all your wiring is good too. In other words, you need two good relays for it to run the pumps, they're not bypassed.

Grounding the connector manually puts in the ground that is normally accomplished by the computer.

As a quick check you could pull the ECM relay and then do the same STO ground and see if the fuel pumps run and post those results.  You should hope I'm wrongWink
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ok.. pulled ECM relay (the relay next to fuel pump relay), grounded STO connector but the pump will not fire now. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slmskrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-27-2021 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by fsts2k fsts2k wrote:

ok.. pulled ECM relay (the relay next to fuel pump relay), grounded STO connector but the pump will not fire now. 

I defer to Keno and those with a lot more experience with the ECM, etc.  I don't know what result we're looking for with the ECM relay removed.  I'm just hoping that the mechanic using a battery charger to power the boat electronics didn't somehow messed up what the computer is supposed to be doing (grounding the fuel pump relay).
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