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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2021 at 8:43pm
We're making progress Bucky Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2021 at 8:45pm
Yes. In a reverse rotation marine engine the crankshaft rotates in opposite direction of an automotive engine and therefore so does the camshaft. But the oil pump needs to run in the normal automotive direction or else it will not pump oil. The distributor drives the oil pump so the gear on the camshaft and the distributor is changed so that it turns the oil pump in the normal direction. That is also why the distributor runs in the same direction because that gear turns the distributor shaft which turns the oil pump. Clear as mud right? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2021 at 8:58pm
This boat has never ran for me, ive only had it for about a month and I didn’t give a whole lot for it so im not freaking out about it, was hoping to have it on the water next summer so i have time to figure it out lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-11-2021 at 9:11pm
Here's Bucky's transmission

It's a Borg Warner so the boat is an 88 not an 89.



So the prop and engine aren't matched as far as rotation.

The next thing to worry about is whether the guy you bought it from, reindexed the transmission to work with the engine rotation, but that's a ways down the road right now.

You have some work on your hands, but nothing that can't be resolved with some effort

You'll be there before next summer  Wink

PS       Bucky, you have a PM


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 5:08am
Or the engine is revers but the starter is wrong? Lots of possibilities ahead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 7:17am
The engine has a normal rotation cam and distributor going by his pictures and since the rotor is turning CCW it's also a normal rotation starter.

Whatever it once might have been, it's right now a normal rotation engine that doesn't run, but it ran long enough to chew up the cam gear. 

The gear on a RR cam is cut the opposite of the gear on a normal rotation cam, that's why the distributor gears have to be different.

All the cam lobes are arranged differently too, for the RR firing order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 7:51am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

it ran long enough to chew up the cam gear. 

Yes, it sure did chew it up. Here's Bucky's cam gear:




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 9:19am
So now that ive figured out what i need in regards to the camshaft and distributor, once i get it going can I change the propeller to work with the rotation of this engine?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 9:25am
Originally posted by Buckyr2 Buckyr2 wrote:

So now that ive figured out what i need in regards to the camshaft and distributor, once i get it going can I change the propeller to work with the rotation of this engine?

Yes, you will need a LH prop. Also as Ken mentioned you'll need to confirm that the trans pump is indexed for a standard (LH) rotation engine. After you get the engine running shift the trans to forward or reverse and if nothing happens, then there's a good chance the trans isn't indexed. Without the proper index, the trans pump won't develope the pressure needed to activate the forward or reverse clutch packs.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 9:28am
I will keep that in mind, thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Buckyr2 Buckyr2 wrote:

So now that ive figured out what i need in regards to the camshaft and distributor, once i get it going can I change the propeller to work with the rotation of this engine?

Another thing you should do is make sure your oil pump intermediate shaft turns and the oil pump isn't seized up.

A seized pump could lead to your stripped gears and also a shaft that looks like a pretzel and doesn't turn.

You could use a 351w priming tool and spin it backwards with a drill or some people use a 1/4 inch drive 5/16 socket and an extension to turn the shaft. Ideally you'd tack weld the socket to the extension so you don't have any chance of losing the socket in the sump.

Some people take the "tacky" approach and duct tape the socket to the extension.

It works fine.............till it doesn't and the socket ends up in the sump Wink

And another thing............you really don't know what you have for a rear main seal. Assuming it's a 1 piece seal, the seals are rotation specific and if the previous guy put a new cam in the original RR block and didn't change the seal to a normal rotation seal, you'll have a leak at the rear main seal.

If it's a replacement block, you're probably OK seal wise but you don't know till you look and if it's apart enough to be looking at the seal, you might as well just replace it.

Another thing would be checking your raw water pump orientation to be right for normal rotation.

Like mentioned earlier, there are lots of things to consider


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 1:08pm
The motor is painted grey and says pcm on it, with the way the prop is set up theres no way its not a right hand rotation engine in my opinion, i forgot to mention in older posts that it has a new oreillys starter on it, i think what im going to do is get a reverse rotation starter and camshaft for it, everything on this engine looks factory and i dont see any signs of new gaskets anywhere? Does anyone disagree with that idea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 1:52pm
You could remove the valve covers put number 1 cylinder on TDC and turn it over by hand and watch which valves start opening and in what order. Following the firing orders you'll know after a few turns if its standard or reverse.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 2:18pm
After a phone conversation with Bucky, we decided that the engine got some creative work done to it in the past.

It appears that it started life as a Reverse Rotation engine and someone put a Normal Rotation cam and distributor in it and stuck a normal rotation starter on it also. (they never changed the firing order though so they were trying to start it with the Reverse Rotation firing order) He also thought maybe the teeth on the original camshaft got destroyed by trying to get the wrong distributor gear to mate, that would really take some doing, but stranger things have happened.

The previous owner never had it running before Bucky bought it. Imagine that  Wink

So his plan is to get a Reverse Rotation camshaft, some new lifters to go with it, and use the old Prestolite distributor with the Reverse Rotation gear that's on it right now. (Sorry Pete, but he wants to go electronic, he's too young to like points,so he'll get a Pertronix conversion for it) (Sorry Jonny, but it's a lot cheaper than a DUI distributor) Maybe he'll get one later Jonny Wink

He'll also get a Reverse Rotation starter so it'll spin the engine the right way and use the Reverse Rotation firing order 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3

Based on the prop and also that it looks like the transmission has never been off the engine, he thinks that it's probably still oriented for Reverse Rotation.

Also talked about was the raw water pump orientation.

I think his plan sounds reasonable to get it running as a Reverse Rotation engine and it will keep the Gods of Reverse Rotation from unleashing their fury on him.

He's a young guy, I'd  mention his age, but it would make most of us feel like antiques, and he's had a fair amount of experience with 351W engines that rotate the way they were meant to go, but Reverse Rotation is all new to him.

Now everybody say.........Good luck Buck, you'll get this all figured out  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 2:27pm
Sounds like a plan. Plenty of time to get it running by Monday......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 3:53pm
A couple of Arco starter numbers for your Reverse Rotation engine, they could be cross referenced to other brands

70201 new PMGR

70107 old style

The PMGR is lighter, faster, cheaper, draws less current and only needs a small wiring change

The old style is ............well, it's old Wink

Maybe you have the original starter in your box of parts that the distributor was in


Here's your pump orientation diagram, the cam screw faces out away from the engine towards the starboard side.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 4:57pm
Who woulda thunk…a bit of creative wrench turning.  I’m glad KENO was able to solve the mystery.  Things could have ended up much worse…

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 5:16pm
Thank you everyone, i will keep the thread updated for results
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 81nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 5:25pm
Well Done Keno,  You're in good hands there Bucky
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-12-2021 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by 81nautique 81nautique wrote:

Well Done Keno,  You're in good hands there Bucky

Sounds like an Allstate commercial Wink

We won't call it a success until Bucky gets this all figured out and running
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-13-2021 at 7:33pm
Is the mellings MEL-24209 camshaft the compatible with this engine? Want to make sure before i fire the parts cannon
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-14-2021 at 6:08am
It's compatible.

A number of places show it out of stock, but here's a link that seems to have it in stock ( it doesn't say it's out of stock anyways) and has a better price than most anybody else


and since you need lifters too, here's another link


It's a good outfit to deal with

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2021 at 7:23pm
(Update)-
Ive got everything i need to get this done other than the camshaft, i decided to go with the mellings 24209 camshaft and i cannot find it anywhere, keno posted a link to the cam and they informed me that they no longer had it in stock and refunded me my money.😡 hopefully i can find one soon that will work to get this show on the road
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2021 at 8:04pm
Maybe if Ken recommends Cam Research maybe you'll call them?   Ken can you help him out? They might not have them either but they have in the past and Fords are all they do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2021 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Maybe if Ken recommends Cam Research maybe you'll call them?   Ken can you help him out? They might not have them either but they have in the past and Fords are all they do.

Ok Gary Wink

Bucky try Cam Research Corp, see link

Me and Gary like phone calls for stuff like this


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckyr2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-18-2021 at 8:19pm
Will give them a call tomorrow
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2021 at 12:51am
Nice work boys fixing Bucky up.  When we installed the cheap HEI type distributor in my brothers Supra, 351W reverse rotation we removed and swapped the cam gears from the old dist to the new dist.   It was still working well when he sold that boat.  In case you wanted the newer distributor to work.  I have not checked recently but Sealed Power used to sell the reverse Rotation Camshaft for the small block Fords.  Straighten me out if I am wrong but I believe you are fine using the 302 camshaft as long as you change to the 302 firing order.  If no 351W reverse rotation cams are available it might work as an option.  Check lift and duration to make sure they offer similar performance.

The last post I found of someone on this forum installing this cam was in 2006, but they liked the cam so the specs might help.
Wow, camshafts are becoming very hard to get.  I just searched and could not find an available Reverse Rotation Camshaft anywhere.
FYI:  I just waited 8 months to get the camshaft for a Chevy Small block std rotation.  I hear Comp Cams has something like 20,000 cams on backorder due to COVID employee shortages.  If we cut back the government handouts a lot of people will be motivated to go back to work!  Sorry, should not get political.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2021 at 6:37am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Nice work boys fixing Bucky up.  When we installed the cheap HEI type distributor in my brothers Supra, 351W reverse rotation we removed and swapped the cam gears from the old dist to the new dist.  
 
So Mark, I just have to ask, since you seem to talk about safety a lot, why is it that you have talked numerous times about you, your brother and a friend all having non USCG distributors in your various boats over the years?

They must have had a reason to require the manufacturers to have ignition protected stuff Wink

And here you are telling Bucky he can swap gears to put one in his boat.

In his case it would be a little more involved than a gear swap. The Chinese distributor in his earlier photo has a 2 piece shaft and the gear is a bit different than his Prestolite gear..

The picture is the same brand distributor that I took out of a friends boat a few years ago because it wasn't marine rated.

It worked good, but well you know a few stray gas fumes, a sparking distributor that's not ignition protected and it's not a pretty outcome.



I might be a little curious also as to what year and model of Supra  came with a RH rotating engine?

Early years they had LH engines and props, then when the PCM 40A came out, they had LH engines and RH props and then they went to LH engines and LH props again when they changed engine suppliers


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2021 at 12:44pm
Well Ken glad you had entertainment this morning.   You are of course correct on safety and spark issues.
I have not seen an open path to open spark in a closed and sealed distributor  so yes I have run 3 automotive distributors in boats now.  In my brothers Supra we swapped the gear at install, I was thinking it was for rotation but I may have swapped for compatibility, meaning I did not trust the gear I saw on the new unit to work on our cam.
I would not use an automotive starter on a boat.
I do religiously run my blower in our boat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-20-2021 at 1:04pm
I found specs for the 351W Marine Camshaft that Sealed Power offered.  I have not found it available for sale but at least you will have specs to match against others.  
CS1057M  351W Marine Reverse Rotation Cam  18456273 fire order
Valve Lift Intake:  .444  Exhaust:  .452
Duration at .050   206/221    @ .006  284/304
Lobe center   115*
That is what the book quotes for this 351W Marine Cam
Hope it helps.
Mark
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