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New starter | which to get?? |
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Spotrep 
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Joined: September-21-2021 Location: Rowlett, Tx Status: Offline Points: 39 |
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 Topic: New starter | which to get??Posted: October-05-2021 at 9:33pm |
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Ive scoured this forum looking for this debate but havent found anything. If its already been discussed please link and ill delete! What are the pros/cons to a permanent magnet vs field winding starter? What did ya'll choose and why? The previous owner of my newly acquired 85 SN replaced the starter with a starter for LH engine. I have to replace with a RH so i figured i would seek advise from the wise as to which i should go. Skidim has them priced the same I believe. Many thanks fellas! T
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Gary S
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Posted: October-05-2021 at 10:27pm |
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Don't think there has been an actual debate. Here are my thoughts- All the newer Fords,95 I'm sure of and above come with them from the factory. They are much lighter and therefore easier to lift up and install.It also seems that the field winding type is not made anymore unless you buy an import one. Your looking at something like an Arco 70201. A quick web search you can find them for 139.00
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Nautiquehunter
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Joined: December-31-2008 Location: Lake Lanier GA Status: Offline Points: 1010 |
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 5:50am |
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I update the starter and alternator in all my boat builds . That includes a new gear reduction GM style permanent magnet starter. I have been using DB Electric and never had an issue.
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KENO
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 6:47am |
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The biggest issue you'll have with DB Electrical is that they no longer sell a PMGR starter to fit a Reverse Rotating 351W.
Once upon a time they did, but not anymore.  The Arco 70201 Gary mentions is a good choice for your Reverse Rotating engine and like he said around 140 or so at numerous places. Some places will nail ya' for about 200 for the same starter, so a little shopping around will save a fair amount of money. The PMGR starters also spin the engine faster and draw less current while doing it.
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KENO
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 9:15am |
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The starter rotates counter clockwise which is what you need for your reverse rotation engine
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 10:07am |
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I actually called DB electrical and told them that my engine is reverse. He gave me a part number. Got it and tested it and the thing rotates the wrong way  Its being refunded, hopefully.. Whats been confusing about all this for someone who is new to boats is the left/right, ccw/cw, terms. I understand now that I have a LH engine and the starter needs to be CCW. But my ignorance led to me ordering the wrong starter. As always ya'll have been fantastic help for me. I owe each of you beer! T |
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TRBenj
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 10:28am |
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Rotation convention can be tricky… automotive seems to reference things differently from marine. The latter views engine rotation from the rear. A reverse rotation marine engine = RH. Starter rotation is viewed from the business end of the starter itself (nose cone). Remember that starter and flywheel rotation will be complimentary. A front mounted (down low in front of the bellhousing) starter for a RH (reverse rotation) engine will be CCW.
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 11:27am |
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yeah this is info that would have served me well about a week ago  I always try to operate independently and scour forums before purchasing anything. I think in the future though ill jump to the forum more quickly |
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desertskier
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Joined: December-19-2006 Location: Az Status: Offline Points: 1115 |
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 12:30pm |
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I found this Arco diagram useful to determine rotation.
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92 SN - Owned since 93
99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
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KENO
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Posted: October-06-2021 at 1:06pm |
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Is it safe to assume that in your searches you found that a small, minor wiring change is needed when swapping to the PMGR starter.
The Arco comes with the appropriate wire ( about 2ft or so of 10 gauge wire with the roght connectors on both ends) and a set of instructions. If you need help with the wiring, or a diagram, just ask here
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-14-2021 at 7:31pm |
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Welp. Got my Arco starter. Was so excited to see this motor turn the correct direction for the first time. Got it wired and installed, attached the battery, and!!!! nothing. Absolutely nothing. No dash lights at all. No power. I wired according to included instructions i believe.. only other variable would be considerable rain in an uncovered boat. Any ideas?
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KENO
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Posted: October-14-2021 at 8:01pm |
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You didn't ask for a wiring diagram, but here's one anyways Getting nothing at all sounds like either your 20 amp ignition breaker next to the key is tripped and needs to be reset or your main breaker at the back of the engine (near the solenoid you were changing wires on) is tripped and needs to be reset. Also, look at the solenoid and make sure you have the 2 big cables on the same terminal as the supply wire to the engine breaker to be sure you're getting power to the breaker. You should have 3 wires on one of the big terminals and only the new wire that came with the kit on the other one. The diagram shows it in Yellow but you probably got a Red wire with the kit.  |
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KENO
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Posted: October-15-2021 at 8:20am |
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-15-2021 at 10:52am |
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Keno you’re fantastic to have on this forum. You’ve been so helpful on all my posts.
The way I have it wired now is correct for the wires on the diagram, but I have 2 additional wires on the “b” side of the solenoid..? I’ll take a picture when I get home. Idk if it’s relevant but I have a commander 351 and not a PCM. |
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KENO
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Posted: October-15-2021 at 12:34pm |
No fair saying that till the boat is running For the area you're concerned with, the diagram works good for your Commander, but there are differences elsewhere in the wiring When you mentioned no power at all, does your blower or bilge pump work? If they do, it means you're getting power to the dash hot feed. If not, check voltage at the places circled in the diagram below, with a multimeter to see where you have 12 ish volts and where you have zero.  If you do have power to the dash hot feed (bilge pump, blower work), then check that your shifter is in neutral, you may have to wiggle it a little) since if it's not in neutral you'll just get deafening silence.
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-15-2021 at 2:04pm |
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Ill see what my efforts tonight accomplish and report back!
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-15-2021 at 8:29pm |
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It’s running! Now to get it running well..
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KENO
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Posted: October-16-2021 at 5:48am |
This is normally the spot where you're supposed to say what your issue was and how you fixed it
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-17-2021 at 12:49am |
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Oh yes!
It seems the previous owner had it wired incorrectly. I moved the starter wire to the same post that the battery wire was on and added the additional included wire on the opposite post to run to the start in accordance with instructions. BUT the wire that runs to the engine breaker was on “B” post on the solenoid. So I swapped the wire to the engine breaker to the same side that the batter cable was on and it runs. Cant say for certain that it is correct the way it is though. I don’t know for sure that the wires are on the right side of the solenoid and there is an addition wire on b side that I unhooked from solenoid because it isn’t on the diagram and I have low confidence in how it’s been wired |
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KENO
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Posted: October-17-2021 at 7:46am |
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The "A" and "B" posts on the solenoid just get connected internally when the solenoid is energized, so the battery, starter and supply to the breaker can all be ganged together on either post, with the wire going down to the starter solenoid on the other post.
As a guess, your extra wire that you disconnected must either feed power somewhere or maybe it was used to send power from the alternator to the battery. Would it be something like an Orange 10 gauge wire? If so, that would be from the alternator for supplying the battery. Different than the diagram but it would accomplish the charging.
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-17-2021 at 2:37pm |
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Yes it is orange! You’re a wizard! Where is it supposed to go?
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KENO
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Posted: October-17-2021 at 2:58pm |
I'm more of a whizzer , but it's probably the alternator output (you could verify that the other end hooks to the alternator output by tracing the wire or using an ohmmeter ) and it could go with the 3 Red wires on the solenoid (you'll have 4 wires on that post) and it will charge the battery.In the diagram for a PCM engine earlier, it's the Orange wire that hooks to the 50 amp breaker output. Different companies did it different ways. You can hook it to the breaker output or the input side like on the solenoid. Couple of different wiring philosophies but both work.
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-18-2021 at 7:53pm |
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Whelp. The new starter decided to shred the teeth in the ring gear. Currently in the process of pulling transmission so I can get to flywheel. We’ll see how damper plate looks. May be replacing it if it looks iffy at all since I’ll be in there already. Anything I need to know on ring gear? I know there are 2 different numbers of teeth but I know nothing other than that. Got a fake a lake today so once I get the ring gear on I can start making sure this thing runs reliably!
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KENO
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Posted: October-18-2021 at 8:23pm |
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Must be all that starter power or some bad teeth to begin with
157 teeth on the gear
It fits a 1967 Mustang with a 289 and a 4 speed , not an automotive 351 that uses a different flywheel and ring gear than the marine version. A couple of part numbers for cross reference if you can't get one of these part numbers. Your local parts store should be able to get one for somewhere in the 20 dollar range ATP-ZA-503 Pioneer FRG 157N You don't want to flip the old gear because the front and back aren't the same where it seats on the flywheel, and the installed depth will be different. Here's a thread in the link that tells why flipping the old gear isn't a good thing to do Read the whole thread because the original thought of flipping it turned out to be "not so good" |
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Spotrep
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Posted: October-18-2021 at 9:12pm |
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Haha you don’t need to convince me not to flip it. Seems silly to save $20 for it to just fail again and have to pull the transmission back out later
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KENO
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Posted: October-19-2021 at 6:24am |
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Ha ha right back, glad you're getting a new gear.
Next you'll probably need some convincing to ditch the fake a lake assuming it looks like a toilet plunger with a hose fitting it'll work OK ish, but it's not on the CCF favorites list since as you move around in the boat, there's always that chance that it loses it's seal to the hull or falls over and you don't know it......and then you have no flow to the engine,,,,,,,,,,,and then things get worse from there. You can do a search here on CCF for "Timmy T" or the "hose in a bucket" method for a couple of alternatives.
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Spotrep
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Posted: February-21-2022 at 10:49pm |
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Hello fellas! Apologies for the long wait. I got married in November and then we found out in December my wife is pregnant
 It’s warmed up a bit in Texas for me to resume my project. I got the transmission pulled and out of the boat. Should I do any work to it while it’s out? I pulled the bell housing and gained access to the damper plate and flywheel. Everything is vey rusty. I’ve got the front of the tranny soaking in evaporust. The flywheel was scaly as well. Should I replace the damper? I’ll post photos tomorrow when I can get to a computer. Failed to get ring gear off tonight. I’m gonna take the flywheel to a shop and ask them to change it for me. I got it to move but am feeling done for the night haha. |
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: February-22-2022 at 1:03am |
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I recently had to pull my transmission, and took the opportunity to replace damper plate (which was shot), ring gear and starter. Ring gear removal and installation was far less of a problem than I anticipated (I'm a total newbie to all of this).
General advice on the forum seems to be to replace the damper if in doubt. I definitely think the fact that my damper had not been replaced in almost forty years contributed to my transmission failure.
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
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Morfoot
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Posted: February-22-2022 at 6:21am |
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Seeing as how you already have it apart....I'd replace it. Better to be safe than sorry.
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"Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Spotrep
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Posted: February-22-2022 at 1:52pm |
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I agree just didn’t wanna spend $200 or so haha.
Thinking about painting flywheel before I put ring gear on. I’ll tape off all mating surfaces first but do y’all see any harm in painting surface between damper plate and flywheel? |
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Spotrep wrote: