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351w Rebuild

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    Posted: March-17-2023 at 8:23pm
Here's the latest upate on the rebuild:

Block is still at the machine shop. Had to sleeve one cylinder (crack.) Bored .03 and cut .01 on all journals. Looking like two more weeks.

Although I wasn't concerned about the condition of the cam, the guy there wasn't thrilled, so it's getting a new melling 24209.

The heads tested ok. But as new valves and springs were very strongly recommended, it's new Mellings as well.

I was all set to go with the sealed power lifters that Mr. McD researched, but as luck would have it, I had O'Reilly rewards and JB-900s were in stock at only $3 more, so they're in-hand.

I did make a potentially controversial decision and opted for Fel Pro 9333pt1 head gaskets instead of 1011-01s. The reason for this was that many of Fel Pro's "marine" gaskets are perma-torque anyway. From a lot of reading, the 933s can handle boost and high horsepower, so it seemed reasonable that these, which are far more advanced than the OEMs that were used successfully in the 80s (MLS) is indeed sufficient...I look forward to your comments.

I got the rear seal that Ken suggested and I did end up finding the Fel Pro "brand" front seal cheap, and since it was in stock I nabbed it instead of ebay.

Only thing left are the other gaskets. I'm sure I'll have questions for those as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 3:01am
Well, I will offer an opinion and you do what you wish.

Used Valves:  Out of a Nautique, I would certainly re use the valves and valve springs, replace only those that may be damaged.  Boats have low use compared to automotive use.  The RPM range is tame and cam lift is almost bone stock so those parts should be good as new.   Certainly do a valve job, new valve stem seals guides if necessary but spend the money where it matters.   Buy Moly Rings, they are kind to the cylinder, seat well on new start up and last well over 200,000 miles in a car.   Cast rings have about 40% of that life span and are very hard on the cylinder wall causing extra wear.   Fel Pro Marine gaskets use a stainless steel core that will never rust out.  They also use a Stainless combustion ring which resists detonation 3 times better than an automotive standard gasket.  All good for long Marine life.   When I was younger and broke I built my 78 Nautique engine with automotive parts because they cost less.   Engine ran 500 more hours for me with no loss of compression but my water I ran in is clean, no salt water.  Do they work, yes, are stainless better, Yes.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 9:36am
Umm.............I thought you bought some refurbished, lightly used heads from an 85 SN from a relatively close by CCFer.

Here are some part numbers for some gaskets you might be needing

Head gasket ......Felpro 17060 "marine" head gasket. How much different is it material wise from the 9331pt1 that you mention. You'll have to ask Mr. Fel or Mr. Pro about that. You'll have no nagging concerns if you spend the bucks for the 17060.

Oil pan gasket  Felpro OS30214T  it's one piece, it costs more and it's worth every penny and it's "oh so pretty" to look at Wink

Exhaust gaskets Felpro MS90000

Intake gaskets Felpro 1262S3

Timing cover gasket set  Felpro TCS 45450, 45008 or 45168 all work with slight differences in what you get for parts. Things like the front seal are included but you won't be using it since you have a RR seal for your particular engine.

Now of course you can find alternate stuff for any of those gaskets listed above from Felpro or a variety of other companies at a variety of prices  but these are all good choices

Carburetor spacer gaskets PCM RM0054B one above and one below the spacer to avoid vacuum leaks These are big and seal all the surfaces unlike lots of other gaskets that don't play well with the spacer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 10:07am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Well, I will offer an opinion and you do what you wish.

Used Valves:  Out of a Nautique, I would certainly re use the valves and valve springs, replace only those that may be damaged.  Boats have low use compared to automotive use.  The RPM range is tame and cam lift is almost bone stock so those parts should be good as new.   Certainly do a valve job, new valve stem seals guides if necessary but spend the money where it matters.   Buy Moly Rings, they are kind to the cylinder, seat well on new start up and last well over 200,000 miles in a car.   Cast rings have about 40% of that life span and are very hard on the cylinder wall causing extra wear.   Fel Pro Marine gaskets use a stainless steel core that will never rust out.  They also use a Stainless combustion ring which resists detonation 3 times better than an automotive standard gasket.  All good for long Marine life.   When I was younger and broke I built my 78 Nautique engine with automotive parts because they cost less.   Engine ran 500 more hours for me with no loss of compression but my water I ran in is clean, no salt water.  Do they work, yes, are stainless better, Yes.   


Very much agree on the rings. The cast iron was tempting but ultimately choose plasma moly carbon steel w/ a phospher coated 2nd. SS for the scraper

Yeah, I did labor over the gasket decision for quite awhile, but went with the Perma-torque line because they too have a MLS stainless core.
It isn't high compression, won't be abused and will see maybe 25 hrs a year on it.

Honestly too; cost has become a critical concern now too. This is an out of pocket endeavor for a friend who fell on hard times. Just like Boston's Big Dig, I'm substantially into "cost overruns" (I think that's the politically correct term nowadays 😄)

The reason they want new springs is because of the new cam. They are getting rid of the circular spacers and using same-height springs for both intake and exhaust. I am so ignorant in this area that I just went with it. I will say though, that after reading your comment on the cam, I do wonder if a new one was really needed. But, as bar is down and the roller coaster started, I'm in.
I'm invoking Alan Shepherd's prayer at this stage and hoping it works out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 10:34am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:



Umm.............I thought you bought some refurbished, lightly used heads from an 85 SN from a relatively close by CCFer.

Here are some part numbers for some gaskets you might be needing

Head gasket ......Felpro 17060 "marine" head gasket. How much different is it material wise from the 9331pt1 that you mention. You'll have to ask Mr. Fel or Mr. Pro about that. You'll have no nagging concerns if you spend the bucks for the 17060.

Oil pan gasket  Felpro OS30214T  it's one piece, it costs more and it's worth every penny and it's "oh so pretty" to look at Wink

Exhaust gaskets Felpro MS90000

Intake gaskets Felpro 1262S3

Timing cover gasket set  Felpro TCS 45450, 45008 or 45168 all work with slight differences in what you get for parts. Things like the front seal are included but you won't be using it since you have a RR seal for your particular engine.

Now of course you can find alternate stuff for any of those gaskets listed above from Felpro or a variety of other companies at a variety of prices  but these are all good choices

Carburetor spacer gaskets PCM RM0054B one above and one below the spacer to avoid vacuum leaks These are big and seal all the surfaces unlike lots of other gaskets that don't play well with the spacer.



Indeed I did get a set from Mr. Incredible, but I rounded headbolt and since the heads were already on the '80, i just went that route.

Didn't you tell me to nix the carb spacer earlier?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 11:54am
Originally posted by NeilMcG NeilMcG wrote:

 
Didn't you tell me to nix the carb spacer earlier?
 

If it's an Edelbrock Performer 2181 that you got when you were looking for manifolds, you can ditch the one inch stock spacer  but you still need a thin spacer plate for a Holley to seal right on the manifold.

I think Mr. Incredible uses some engine builder/machine shop in your area, your place won't assemble things for you?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Originally posted by NeilMcG NeilMcG wrote:

 
Didn't you tell me to nix the carb spacer earlier?
 

If it's an Edelbrock Performer 2181 that you got when you were looking for manifolds, you can ditch the one inch stock spacer  but you still need a thin spacer plate for a Holley to seal right on the manifold.

I think Mr. Incredible uses some engine builder/machine shop in your area, your place won't assemble things for you?



Yep, I did get the Performer 2181, so now I understand.
I sure hope he could direct me to a builder. The builder originally chosen doesn't seem too excited about it now as he's swamped. If anyone has contacts
In NW Pa or eastern OH, please let them know I have a cash job waiting for them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-18-2023 at 2:38pm
With a spacer/adapter like a Jeg's 15442 or an Edelbrock 2732 the PCM gaskets aren't an absolute necessity but they're thick and big and nice to use. They'll hang out some.

As long as you have gaskets the same size as the spacer, you'll be all set

There are other equivalent spacers/adapters out there too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Greg_SA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-19-2023 at 3:37am
I'm also doing a "new" 351w build with the Edelbrock Performer 2181 and bought the Edelbrock 2732 adapter plate.

Not planning on using the PCM 1" spacer.

Did a quick measurement of the gasket thickness, and the PCM are thicker...
  PCM RM0054B = 1.6mm
  Quick fuel (came with M600 carb) = 1.5mm
  Edelbrock (came with 2732 adapter) = 1.2 mm

I think you'll also need shorter (standard) carb studs - I bought from Summit Racing (1.7" long)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 9:19am
What are you doing about an oil pump?

I don't remember any mention of that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 10:36am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

What are you doing about an oil pump?

Going with a Melling M-83. High volume pumps put excessive stresses on the distributor gear. The galley plug is going to be pin-holed a few thou also to aid lubrication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 4:56pm
Good plan on oil pump and dizzy gear oiling.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 4:59pm
People like to "discuss" the strain on the gear, but in a 351W with a rear sump pan like you have, ,a Hi Volume pump like an M83HV is tall enough that the oil pan won't sit flat on the block unless you take a big hammer and go early caveman beating on the pan from the inside to give some clearance for the pump body.Wink

You won't have that issue

In a front sump engine there's a bunch of room for the Hi Volume pump
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


In a front sump engine there's a bunch of room for the Hi Volume pump

Kind of begs the question; What are the performace differences? Pressure, volumetric flow? Under what conditions would having the high volume pump show its value?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 5:41pm
If you have an engine with loose bearings it won’t build good idle oil pressure.  A high volume pump would mask that problem and give you good oil pressure at idle.  So if the engine has leaks internally a high volume can cover them up.  In the GM LS style engines as they age oil pressure drops at idle, some go as low as 10 PSI at idle.  That makes people nervous.  Install a high volume pump in those and idle oil pressure jumps up to 40 PSi and the owner is happy.  The engines.last a long time even when loose.
High pressure pumps are usually for Racers that run very high RPM.  The old Maxim I think spoken by Smokey Yanuck  was 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM.  He was a legendary engine builder and racer so people listened.
In your stock 351W a stock pump would serve you well.   If you want more oil pressure you can just change the relief spring in the by pass on the pump and raise your oil pressure.   Melling used to supply 2 or 3 springs with the pumps and instructions on what pressure they would hold.   Most engines when new have tight clearances and the pressure relief valve is opening below 500 RPM, so even at 500 RPM the pump is making more pressure and flow  than your engine needs.  As RPM raises you find out where the Releif spring is designed to open.
My 351W has only 200 Hours on it.   Cold start I may see as much as 50 psi,  once warm it has just under 40 PSI at idle and from 1,000 to wide open oil pressure stays around 45 PSI.   So my spring from the factory is right around 45 PSI, and the by pass is regulating oil pressure to stay at 45 PSI regardless of my RPM range.
A high pressure pump might show 65 PSI at 5,000 RPM.   
The stock pump is supplying all the oil your engine needs so no need to add more flow or pressure unless you know the engine is loose.   I try to keep rod and main clearance down to .002 on a rebuild.   Many build engines with .003 or more.   At .002 a stock pump will have great idle oil pressure.   At .003 the same engine with the same pump might see only 20 PSI at idle oil pressure.  More clearance = more leaks of oil pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

  The stock pump is supplying all the oil your engine needs so no need to add more flow or pressure unless you know the engine is loose.   I try to keep rod and main clearance down to .002 on a rebuild.   Many build engines with .003 or more.   At .002 a stock pump will have great idle oil pressure.   At .003 the same engine with the same pump might see only 20 PSI at idle oil pressure.  More clearance = more leaks of oil pressure.

Great post, thank you. That brings up another consideration ...whether or not to run a slightly tighter clearance. As a stock rebuild with modest horsepower, it will never see the strains of, say a nitrous or even boosted engine. My thought is that it'd be fooling to mess around with that, but I do wonder.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-20-2023 at 9:41pm
Pistons are lubricated by the throw off of connecting rods as they spin.  A loose engine can throw so much oil that the rings can’t handle it and it can cause oil consumption.  So do not go too loose.,   Shoot for .002 to .0025 and call if good.  Boats typically run cooler than passenger cars so no way I would go tighter than .002.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-21-2023 at 3:31am
Final thoughts on loose engine internals.  Cam bearings are frequently the cause of low oil pressure.  The cam bearings are soft, much softer than rod or main bearings.  On install the tech typically will install your new cam bearings and before releasing the block to you he will install a checker cam.   If this cam does not go in they have a carving spoon.  It kind of looks like a spoon but the handle of the spoon is about 2.5 feet long.   The edges of the spoon are sharpened.  They slip this in to the bearing that is hanging the cam up and use the spoon to carve material away.  Then they try install again.  IF it works they are done, if not they carve a little more.  For some engines I have seen shops use a cam that has carving slots cut into the bearing journals, slip it into the cam bores and it will cut away any material in the way of install, it works but is heavier to work with than the spoon to do the same job.  This is a very inexact part of the engine build that is overlooked many times for oil leaks internally.  If the carving is a little aggressive oil will leak out of that bearing journal and you might loose 5 PSI or more of oil pressure.   These bearings are so soft that the rotation of the loaded cam will mold the bearing into a round shape again to house your camshaft but it is now larger than designed and will spill extra oil.
The factory used to buy cam bearings in rough form, not finished to size, install them in a block and then run a broach through and it would size them straight and true for final cam install.   The aftermarket does not do this procedure mostly because of the time it takes for very little gain so you get bearings sized to fit and sometimes, maybe 2 out of 10 engines gets carved on to make the bearings work.   Castings are not always the same and have some variance from engine to engine so the factories sized the bearings to fit after install in the block with good tooling.  The aftermarket machine shops use the spoon and it works fine, just some leak more than others.  Don't sweat this information just accept it and know some engines will have better oil pressure than others and some get a HV pump to get the pressure back.  The HV pumps do use more HP just to turn them.  I would guess the number is no more than 5 HP wasted to turn the larger pump maybe even less.  The larger engine builders, over 250 engines per month used a SIM test machine.  Bolt the finished long block to the Sim Tester and it would spin the engine at 400 RPM or so while pumping oil into it.  While spinning they checked compression and watched the oil flow and pressure.  There is no valve cover, timing cover or oil pan installed on a Sim test so they can see where the oil lis leaking heavy from.  When one came in with a cam bearing showing a large leak it got the HV pump and went out the door, problem fixed.   The Sim tester was pretty cool, it measure AMP draw as it spun an engine over.  They had charts near the machine that told the tech how many amps or what range was normal for each engine.  So 351W the AMP draw was supposed to be within a small range.  If it was out of range that engine was rejected and sent back to find out what the problem was.   The SIM tester gave the final customer a Long Block that was tested and ready for use.  Only a Dyno run would offer a better test for the buyer but a single dyno run adds $300 to the bottom line so Sim testers were popular.  Smaller shops never had a SIM tester in house.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2023 at 11:00am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

Final thoughts on loose engine internals.  Cam bearings are frequently the cause of low oil pressure.  The cam bearings are soft, much softer than rod or main bearings. 

This is a bit further down the syllabus for me, however it's valuable information and will likely become essential as I am now tackling the assembly myself.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-22-2023 at 12:52pm
After cam bearing install the shop would test fit a cam.  You will be fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-23-2023 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

After cam bearing install the shop would test fit a cam. You will be fine.

Stopped by the machine shop today to drop off some stuff. Looks good so far.
We started talking about timing chains and decided on not going with a double roller...no problem there.

What is a problem though, is that one of the other guys made a comment about there being another sprocket that goes inside of the timing cover. It was in passing and it didn't hit me until later.

Can't figure out what he's talking about. What else is needed apart from the cam sprocket in the timing chain set?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2023 at 7:06am
Well, let's say that you buy a timing set.

 It has 2 gears/sprockets and a chain in that set.

It sounds like you're gonna get a set with "silent" chain and matching gears/sprockets since you're not getting a double roller chain

The first thing you have to do is figure out if your fuel pump eccentric is one piece or two piece.

You'll most likely have a 2 piece eccentric, so you'll buy a silent timing chain set for use with a 2 piece eccentric

First picture .......two piece on the left and one piece on the right. Two piece is stamped steel, one piece rotates around the other. One piece is a heavy casting.


Second picture......it's what's under the timing cover


Third picture roller and silent chain


I guess you'll have to figure out what you and the other guy are talking about Wink

Maybe he's talking about a gear drive setup with no chain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2023 at 9:43am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:


Maybe he's talking about a gear drive setup with no chain


Thank you Commander Ken, Sir.

Hopefully he was referring to the eccentric fuel cam.
Never would haved guessed that must be replaced with new.
Heading back today to to clarify. I'll report my findings @ 18:00 hrs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2023 at 9:47am
You don't need a new eccentric, you just need to get a timing set compatible with the eccentric you have
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2023 at 10:00am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

You don't need a new eccentric, you just need to get a timing set compatible with the eccentric you have

Ok that's what I thought, although you did spare me a potential headache 'cause I thought all were standard.
Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-24-2023 at 1:50pm
On install use some lock tite on the Cam Bolt.  I have heard of those loosening up and causing a bad day.
Great detail info Ken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NeilMcG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March-25-2023 at 8:10am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

On install use some lock tite on the Cam Bolt.

That's valuable to know. Thanks
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