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Sniper Efi , Quick Fuel or another Holley Rebuild?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomrupp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sniper Efi , Quick Fuel or another Holley Rebuild?
    Posted: June-01-2023 at 10:54am
I searched the site with no luck to find an old thread. Has anyone converted a 351 carbureted to a Holley Sniper Efi? How did it work out? Was it worth it? How about a quick Fuel 4160? We rebuilt the Holley 4160 in 2021. It made a huge difference. Wondering if a new investment is worth it for consistent running or if we should stick with the Holley.
Tom
94 Ski Nautique Open Bow 351 with Carb
95 Double Decker Aqua Patio with 50hp Honda (3 carbs).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mosinee77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2023 at 12:12pm
I changed from the old Holley 4160 on my '77 302 to the QuickFuel M-600 just last week. The new carb made a huge difference on my boat. I did rebuild the Holley, and it did work OK, but always seemed to run a little too rich, that I was not able to get rid of. It also seemed to flood easily after sitting when warm.

The QF went on and with some simple linkage revisions, and float adjustments, was pretty much plug and play from the box. Had the boat on the water all Memorial day weekend, and it ran great.

I know not really what you were asking with regard to the Sniper, but carbs can be quite trouble free also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2023 at 2:15pm
Sniper you say?.............click on the link Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomrupp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2023 at 3:20pm
Thank you Keno and M77! Great info.
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2023 at 5:32pm
Tom

Since Fenton is about 30 miles away from these guys in the link, maybe an in person visit would get you some good EFI conversion information

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-01-2023 at 11:33pm
Adding EFI to a Marine engine is more difficult than adding to an automotive engine because of our Wet Exhaust.   EFI needs to read your exhaust to properly tune and do its job.  The water in our exhaust creates many issues that can be very expensive to overcome when you need O2 sensors for your EFI conversion.  A couple have done it I believe but it is not a simple plug and play for the average Joe.   I would grab a Quick Fuel or new Holley and go enjoy your boat.   If you were doing this on a 1968 Mustang (car not boat) there are kits that are almost Plug and Play but many owners will tell you it still took some tuning to get it right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1980SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-07-2023 at 3:53pm
I installed the Holley Sniper EFI system on my 351W in my 1980 Ski Nautique and it works great so far. I don't have anything to compare it to though because the boat wasn't running when I got it. 

My engine has the two piece PCM exhaust manifolds which you can get an 02 sensor adapter for from Ebay and install with minor modifications.

Engine starts everytime no problem, no hesitation, no bogging, very responsive. I ordered the kit so it came with the fuel pump, pre and post fuel filters, gas hose, bulkhead fitting for return line to the tank, hose clamps etc.

I was having an issue with it initially but re-routed my O2 sensor wire away from my coil and it fixed the issue. nubf14 on here was very helpful when I was trying to troubleshoot the system as he also installed the Holley Sniper EFI.

Very easy to install with minimal wiring.

+1 vote for Holley Sniper EFI from me.

Here is a pic of the O2 sensor adapter I ordered from Ebay and the Holley Sniper EFI installed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2023 at 6:12am
Kinda wondering if you have your electric fuel pump wired with a low oil pressure safety shutdown switch?

Or is it controlled by the ECM?

I don't see any mention by you or nubf14 in any posts/threads about using one.

Edit......it looks like the ECM will deenergize the fuel pump relay, shutting the pump off if the tach signal from the distributor/coil says the engine isn't running, so no need for the oil pressure switch. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-08-2023 at 3:58pm
Wow, tools keep getting better.   So the O2 issue has been resolved, that opens the door for EFI much more effectively.  The early versions worked well in cars with near stock camshafts but the guys running larger cams with low vacuum could not get the same good results.   Is the ne Sniper working better and allowing cam changes and higher compression today?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 8:32am
I've seen the sniper on much wilder builds than our ferds, seems they got it worked out quite well
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1980SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 9:24am
I was unaware/oblivious to the need for this but thank you for brining it up. I will figure out a way to test this and make sure it works as intended and shuts the fuel pump off when the engine is not running and the key is still in the on position. 

I am under the impression a boat is required to have a "hard" fuel line post fuel pump, is this true? Does a braided stainless hose meet this requirement?

Are there any other requirements I might be missing you guys can think of?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 12:11pm
It has to be Coast Guard approved fuel line, that can be metal or rubber if it meets the spec.  The spec states how long it has to protect you should a fire start inside your boat.  Automotive rubber fuel lines do not meet the spec.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1980SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 12:40pm
I’m guessing that applies to all of the fuel lines in the boat?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 1:33pm
If you bought the "master kit" that includes the electric fuel pump and fuel line  (it's Earl's vapor guard fuel line), you'd think that Holley would have some sort of documentation that it meets USCG requirements since they say the Sniper system is USCG approved.

Looking at the Earl's website there's nothing saying that it's USCG approved.

Most if not all USCG A1-15 or A1-10 rated hose says "not for fuel injection" and has a working pressure of 50 psi

You could trust Holley or question them about the suitability of the Earl's hose. It seems to meet all the requirements including burn through time in a fire maybe. The USCG hose has to resist burn through for 2 minutes. The Earl's hose says it has extra resistance compared to normal fuel line, but doesn't give a time from what I can see.

I figure Holley spent a lot of money in testing to be able to say the system is USCG certified.

The factory fuel injected engines from the inboard and IO companies have metal braided hoses and a short little sleeve that say's they're USCG approved on the discharge side of the fuel pump(s)

Here are a couple of links to fuel line requirements. the first one translates USCG legaleze language into more understandable English Wink


None of this spells out a clear cut answer but it gives you some info

As far as the shutoff feature, if your pump is powered from the Blue wire in the Holley harness in the picture below from the installation manual. It should shutdown automatically when the ECM senses that the engine isn't running (Signal from distributor/coil does this). The ECM deenergizes the fuel pump relay which kills power to the Blue wire


The reason for the shutdown is so that the pump won't continue running and feeding a fire if a fuel line is broken and you don't turn the key off for a variety of reasons.. 

Cars have this same electric fuel pump shutdown requirement for the same reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1980SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 3:38pm



Keno, thank you for all the info! You're knowledge never ceases to impress! Smile

I couldn't find anything about Earl's Vapor Lock hose being USCG approved either and so I have to assume it is not.

If I am reading this correctly, according to the second document you posted, the fuel line from the tank to the engine needs to be either USCG Type A1 or it can be USCG Type B1 if no more than
five ounces of fuel is discharged in 2 1/2 minutes. Either way it sounds like it is requried to be a USCG approved fuel line. The fuel line from the tank to the pump should not be a problem to find as it is only under a vacuum by the fuel pump when in operation. 



The fuel line from the pump to the carburetor, or in my case the fuel pump to the fuel water seperator/fuel filter and then the Sniper EFI would need to be USCG Type A1. This seems to be a little harder to find as it needs to have a working pressue of at least 60psi. I also have a return line from the Sniper EFI to the tank but I am not sure what pressure that fuel line is under. I am assuming this fuel line would need to be A1 or B1 approved as well, again if I am reading this correctly.

I found this fuel line on Amazon which appears to be A1-15 rated, has a working pressure of 300psi and the price is significantly lower than comparable fuel lines with less working pressure. This might be an option.

https://www.amazon.com/EVIL-ENERGY-Marine-Rubber-A1-15/dp/B0B6TVHD74/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=marine%2Bfuel%2Bline&qid=1686337424&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

(Sorry, I cannot figure out how to embed a link on this site.)

<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">It seems that the Holley Sniper EFI unit itself is USCG approved but not the master kit or the Earl's Vapor Lock Fuel Line.</span>



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 3:50pm
Interesting on this Ford braided line in that I have not been able to find a tag or a document stating it's UGCG compliant 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 4:35pm
Click link, zoom in, read sleeve

link

Or search for gt40 fuel line and SkiDim, MiamiNautiques etc all have pictures with the same sleeve

Or here's a picture I just took that's easy to read  2000 SAN gt40  Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 4:56pm
Seems like a good find on the Evil Energy hose Jim

The line to the tank won't have much pressure at all, since it's just excess fuel going to a vented tank

Convenience wise it's easier to use A1 for both suction and discharge (and A1 is better hose).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 5:35pm
Maybe you can't see which hose I labeled in the above diagram,it's not the PCM hoses for FCC feed or return, it's the hose that is between the left and right fuel rail provided and installed by Ford or their vendor not PCM.  Swedged on during manufacturing it is not available separately. Here in the real life picture you can see it better- it has a Ford part number tag on it which is the number for both rails and hose. No USCG on it. I wonder what excludes this hose 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1980SN2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

It has to be Coast Guard approved fuel line, that can be metal or rubber if it meets the spec.  The spec states how long it has to protect you should a fire start inside your boat.  Automotive rubber fuel lines do not meet the spec.


Thanks for info MrMcD, I did not realize the reason for the need for marine USCG fuel line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Gary S Gary S wrote:

Maybe you can't see which hose I labeled in the above diagram,it's not the PCM hoses for FCC feed or return, it's the hose that is between the left and right fuel rail provided and installed by Ford or their vendor not PCM.  Swedged on during manufacturing it is not available separately. Here in the real life picture you can see it better- it has a Ford part number tag on it which is the number for both rails and hose. No USCG on it. I wonder what excludes this hose 


Thought you were using that as an example for all the hoses
 
You have the Ford part number for that thing and probably the PCM part number from the PCM illustrated parts manual and I figure neither of those manuals call that a fuel hose, but they call it a fuel rail assembly.

From the PCM manual ........Fuel rail assembly RA085061, I'm sure you can fill in the Ford part number

Maybe it's considered part of the base fuel injected engine and since it's not a hose from the pump to the engine it's treated differently.

Probably some legal technicalities involved to keep the lawyers gainfully employed 

One thing I know is that we don't know everything involved in the certification process Wink








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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-09-2023 at 9:31pm
Probably hit the nail on the head there Ken- lawyers....  I can't understand why hoses and fittings approved for aviation would not good enough for marine use 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote My.sport.nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2023 at 3:54pm
I’m in the process of doing the exact same thing on my 351w, swapping out my rebuilt 4160 to a brand new QF M600. I’ve got the new one on, fuel line attached and the linkage swapped out but I cannot get it to fire up. I’ve gone over the install over and over and I’m getting frustrated as to why it won’t fire. Is there something I’m missing to do? Something like “bleed” the new M600? 

Any help is appreciated. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rebel skier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2023 at 6:24pm
Start a new post saying more about what you have and why.  you will get the help you need.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2023 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by rebel skier rebel skier wrote:

Start a new post saying more about what you have and why.  you will get the help you need.  

What he said......it'll be easier that way. This thread is way off track already  Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote My.sport.nautique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2023 at 9:37pm
Thanks, I will do that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2023 at 10:52pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

This thread is way off track already 

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