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Bogging Down on Acceleration - Quick Fuel M-600

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NautiqueJeff View Drop Down
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    Posted: September-16-2023 at 7:32pm
Just put a brand new Quick Fuel M-600 on my 1998 Ski Nautique with the 5.8 HO.

I have everything dialed in (I think).  Float levels are set so that the level is centered in the sight glass on both bowls, idle mixture screws are set to the highest vacuum achievable, idle is set at 675 in gear.  Accelerator pump is adjusted so that the arm is just touching the screw with the spring at idle.

Engine starts and idles great, and has tons of power compared to the old 4160 that was on it.  I love this carb, except for one thing.  

Upon medium to hard acceleration from idle, it bogs badly.  Almost always to the point that it will stall.  If you ease into the throttle, it runs great. 

ALSO, if you're running down the lake and accelerate into the secondaries, it bogs there too.  Not as bad, but definitely noticeable.  Half a second later it takes off like a rocket ship though.  

I have checked and rechecked the accelerator pump adjustment.

I pulled the accelerator pump nozzle and found that it was a 35.  Out of curiosity, I pulled the one in the old 4160, and it was a 25.  Is there a chance that the new carb is getting too much fuel with the 35 in there?




Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 9:50am
Where is timing set?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 10:21am
Right on at 10 degrees BTDC.  Just checked it yesterday.  
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 10:26am
Realized last night that I set the idle mixture screws in neutral, not in gear.  Not sure that would make a whole lot of difference, but I'll reset those once the rain stops here and see if that makes any difference.  
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 11:25am
10 initial may be ok, but check final. A few more degrees of initial will certainly mitigate a low end bog if it doesn’t put final too high (say, 34ish). Idle mixture set in neutral will exacerbate also, likely too lean with a load.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 11:43am
Ok.  I'll try setting the idle mixture correctly first.  If that doesn't help, I'l play around with timing.  
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 11:58am
Jeff - what you are describing is textbook symptoms for accelerator pump problems.  You state that you have re-checked the accelerator linkage and that you have the proper adjustment.  Have you verified the fuel squirt stream?  I've seen a new out-of-the-box carburetor that came with a bad accelerator pump diaphragm that caused similar issues.  You can do a simple test:

- Boat tied up at dock, running in neutral
- Remove spark / flame arrestor
- Remove throttle cable linkage from carb (so you can manipulate the throttle by hand)
- Verify fuel level in carb bowls sight glass
- Shut off engine
- Look down through carb throat and manipulate the throttle linkage from idle to full throttle (fairly quickly)
- Verify that there is a steady stream of fuel squirting from the nozzles down into the carb throat

I'm a big fan of QF carbs, but even new stuff can have a hiccup -- ask me how I know...

Also, the QF M-600 is not a "double pumper" carb, so there is no accelerator pump circuit on the secondaries.  In my 1994, I installed a QF M-650 which is a double-pumper carb based on the 4150 design.  I like having the extra accelerator circuit at mid to upper throttle levels.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 12:35pm
Tried readjusting the idle mixture screws with the boat in gear.  That adjustment is perfect now, according to the vacuum gauge.

Bog is still there.  Both at initial acceleration, and when the secondaries kick in.

Yeah, I was thinking about this last night, and I thought it might be a good idea to actually check to see if fuel was being delivered by the accelerator pump.  Meant to look at that this morning, but I forgot.  I'll check that in a bit.  That would be something if that was the problem.  
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomrupp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 12:40pm
I’m running a 28. I’ve tried larger nozzles but it runs best with 28. You get the same amount of fuel with 25 verses 35. The 35 just delivers the extra shot faster. Maybe too fast..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 1:22pm
Ok, just tested to be sure the pump was indeed pumping fuel.  It is.  See below.

It is doing it very quickly though.  I wonder if that is the issue.  Should I try putting the 25 that I have in there and see if that makes a difference?

Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jonny Quest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 2:12pm
I would give Quick Fuel (Holley) a call on their help / tech line.  They can work through nozzle size and potential cam actuator profile options.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 7:45pm
I'll guess that their tech line will say that you should be able to bolt it on and go with very little adjustment

Most people do just that and have no issues.

They definitely aren't changing squirter nozzle sizes, pump cams, etc.

The .035 nozzle is the stock size in the M-600

What's your idle vacuum in neutral and in gear?

Your distributor as shown in the PN thread is good for about 30 degrees total advance when it's set at 10 degrees initial. It was let's say conservative to keep warranty claims down on 87 octane gas

10 plus 20 from the weights, so I' do like TRB said and crank up the advance a little to 12 or 14

Have you looked at the transition slots with the carburetor upside down to verify that you have a square opening showing and not a longer rectangle. The rectangle means you're idling on the transition slots and that makes for a hesitation issue on takeoff if the exposed part of the slots are too long

You may have some "twiddling" to do to get that right balance of idle speed, timing, exposed transition slot, and idle mixture screw adjustment for a no hesitation takeoff.
It all starts with a square transition slot opening.

The M-600 also has a screw on the secondary diaphragm housing that can be used to vary the opening point and rate of the secondaries. It's normally open about 1 1/2 turns and needs no adjustment in most cases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 9:18pm
Idle vacuum in gear was reading just a tad above 13 inHg.  I think my gauge is off by about 1 inHg though (it reads -1 when not connected to anything), so probably closer to 14.

In neutral, it was about 1 inHg higher.

I will certainly try adjusting the timing again.  I would have tried it today, but it has been raining and I didn't feel like getting soaked on a test run.  Should be nice all week though, so I'll probably try this tomorrow.  

THANK YOU ALL for the help so far!
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-17-2023 at 9:29pm
I'll have to check the transition slots tomorrow if the timing adjustment doesn't help.  I wasn't familiar with that, but I just did some research, and I think I understand it now.  
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mosinee77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 3:53pm
On the accelerator pump, you may want to try about 15 thousands gap at the arm with the throttle blades full closed. Adjust with a feeler gauge.

Just as a side note, I also went to the QF M600 this summer and the throttle arms on the new carb are slightly different from the original 4160 on my '77.... I did have to make some mounting adjustments and change the brackets (location) slightly... The arms look very similar, but had slightly different actuating rates. Just something to check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by mosinee77 mosinee77 wrote:

On the accelerator pump, you may want to try about 15 thousands gap at the arm with the throttle blades full closed. Adjust with a feeler gauge.

There's something that's just not quite right about this statement above.

Substitute open for closed in the sentence and it works a lot better Wink

Touching at idle and .015 clearance at full throttle position
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 7:28pm
Yeah, I have the accelerator pump set exactly like that. 

I readjusted the idle mixture screws again today, setting the idle as low as possible first, just in case the transition slots were the problem.

No change.

Tried adjusting timing to 14 BTDC.

No change.

It is running great, other than this crazy bog.

I'm going to upload a video of exactly what it is doing.  Maybe seeing and hearing it will make a light bulb go off in one of our heads.
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 7:37pm
Ok, here's the video.  Disregard the check engine light.  The oil pressure switch is bad and is setting that off.  

Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 8:14pm
I'd put a new fuel pump on it and supply it with a temporary tank and see how it runs 

Or supply the one you have now with the temporary tank

Or check the anti siphon valve and the suction in the tank clear of any debris.

Or............well you get the idea, I don't think it's the carburetors fault Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 8:26pm
I'm starting to think it may not be the carb's fault too.

I'll try a temp tank.
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-18-2023 at 8:40pm
Sounds like running out of fuel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2023 at 9:27am
I know a guy who's local with tools I'll send him over-


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2023 at 11:17am
LOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phatsat67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-19-2023 at 1:04pm
I’ve had one QF that required the accelerator pump to be adjusted much tighter than spec. I messed around with pump cams and squirters trying to get it right. Finally just kept tightening it and it cured it.

If it’s strictly related to throttle movement then it’s something with the accelerator pump circuit. I bet if you free rev it in neutral quickly it also bogs.

I had one other that I went through all the same stuff on and it couldn’t be cured (assume it was an issue with the metering block/bowl/body passages). It went back to summit for a warranty return.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-20-2023 at 9:39am
If I rev it in neutral, it revs just fine.  It only seems to be an issue under load.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-21-2023 at 7:31pm
Gary
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September-21-2023 at 10:46pm
Embarrassed  can't help it Paul. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-04-2023 at 7:44pm
OK Jeff, what's happening with this boat now that you're back from your travels picking up more projects? 

Did you misplace it somewhere in the pile of other boats?

Got too may other things going on?

Lost interest?

So many questions Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October-30-2023 at 7:12pm
Kinda in the "current events" category, I think Jeff has forgotten about this boat temporarily Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NautiqueJeff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-08-2023 at 9:25pm
Yeah, I have been a little busy lately, but I had this boat out yesterday and it is still doing the same thing.  Anyone have any other ideas?
Current Boats: 1998 Ski Nautique, 2000 Sport Nautique, 1985 Sea Nautique 2700 (twin-engine), 1981 Fish Nautique (twin-engine), 1980 Fish Nautique (twin-engine)
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