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New camshaft, break-in |
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DenDen 
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Joined: July-20-2023 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 169 |
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 Topic: New camshaft, break-inPosted: February-13-2024 at 4:19pm |
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I have a brand new 350 motor with a flat tap-it camshaft.
It being winter in Ohio, putting it in the lake is not an option. Instructions for break-in vary but they all call to run the motor 20 to 30 minutes at 1500 to 3000 RPMs. This is going to require a great deal more water than a garden hose will supply doing the bucket method. My idea is to take the belt off the raw water pump and put the garden hose directly into the thermostat housing where the water normally enters. I think that might be enough water to cool the exhaust while doing the breaki in. It won’t hurt the water pump, and the engine will not overheat. Running with no load on it will not generate near the heat that would be produced under load. The only concern would be to watch the Exhausts so they don’t get hot. Has anybody done anything like that? |
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MourningWood
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Posted: February-13-2024 at 7:23pm |
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I have not done it that way, but...
The amount of water available to cool the engine seems to me to be the same in either method...however it enters the engine. Either the hose supply is enough, or it isn't...
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1994 Ski Nautique "Riot"
1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
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DenDen
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Posted: February-13-2024 at 11:06pm |
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I’m sure when running the raw water pump the hose cannot keep up.
This causes the pump to run dry and over heat. I’m hoping that bypassing the RWP the hose may be able to cool the exhaust in the “ not so hot “ “no load’ mode. I really don’t know how to proceed. We don’t have the engine in the boat yet as we are going to renew the strut bushings while we can pull the shaft out the top instead of removing the rudder and collar. Thanks for the response. I’ll post pics of my progress on 75 SW Renovation. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 3:15am |
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I have broken in cams in boats with no issue with the garden hose water supply. Our town has 50-60 PSI of water pressure maybe that is why? I use a 3/4" garden hose, it has more flow.
I would connect to the intake hose either with a fake lake or TimmyT for the water supply, other option remove the clamp from the bottom of the boat and pull off the intake hose and slide the garden hose inside the intake hose for supply, all of these methods work fine although I do not like the fake lakes. No need for a bucket, the bucket is used to verify your Raw Water Pump actually works. In this case that is not necessary so the garden hose water supply should be all you need. In my case I fire it up with the water supply on full open, once things are sorted out and the exhaust is putting a lot of water on my driveway I start reducing the water supply while watching my gauges and watching the exhaust. No need to spin 3,000 RPM, I would shoot for 2,000 and not more than 2,400 RPM. You can crank your idle screw up to hold the RPM constant if your throttle will not hold the RPM constant. MOST important, use an oil that does have a higher amount of the ZDDP. Most Diesel oils are good for this and the custom Oils also work well. Standard automotive oils will help your cam fail. Verify your engine is ready to start, do not start cranking the starter before you are ready to fire the engine. Check your timing to make sure it is close enough for an instant start. Double check all spark plug wires to make sure the boat is wired correctly. A common problem is to wire the dist cap the wrong rotation, clockwise vs counterclockwise or cross two wires. It has to be correct. Make sure there is oil in the engine. ( don't laugh many engines get wrecked due to people getting excited and forgetting the new engine does not have oil in it) Pre Prime the Carburetor or if it is injected cycle the key from off to On, hold 3 seconds and do this 3 or 4 times to prime the injection system. On a Carburetor system put about two teaspoons full of gasoline directly into the carburetor right before turning the key to start. Put the spark arrestor back on. Turn on the cold water supply full blast and Start the engine. If it starts right away and it should fire within 5 seconds of cranking since it is pre primed the first thing you do is watch oil pressure. You should get oil pressure right away, maybe 5 seconds from start. If you do not get oil pressure kill the engine and find out why. Once started, you have good oil pressure run it up to 2,000 RPM right away. So within 30 seconds of start, you verify oil pressure and have it revved up to 2,000 RPM and keep it there. Listen to the engine, there should be no knocks or tapping. A lifter or two may clack for the first 30-60 seconds but then should be quiet and smooth. If the lifters keep clacking something is wrong so shut down. (usually an oil gallery plug missing) Next while checking for oil and water leaks you can give it a timing adjustment, not for perfect tune but to make sure you are close to the factory setting. At 2,000 RPM you should have around 20* timing. That may not be perfect but it is close enough for a very safe cam break in. Now check your exhaust manifolds. They should be cool to warm to your touch on the risors telling you the water supply is working. Watch the oil pressure and temperature. Do not let it get hot. Heat on a new engine can be fatal. It is handy to have an IR gun around, you can check temp at all 8 exhaust ports by the head, not by the risor where it is water cooled. Even exhaust temps tell you the engine is working well on all 8 cylinders. I might see 30-40* variation in exhaust temps but they are close normally. On the Chevy the center has 2 exhaust ports so the left and right centers should Temp the same but will be different from the end ports which are single. With everything checking out and the engine not getting hot you might be able to reduce the amount of water flow into the engine, just keep watching to make sure the temp does not go up in the engine. If your hose does not supply enough water borrow a neighbors hose and use both hoses. All this water has to drain somewhere, if you are in Cold country you might be creating an ice skating ring for the neighborhood so plan ahead. Doing it this way I have not damaged the raw water pump impeller at all, it has constant water flow for lubrication. At the end of the 30 minute break in bring the engine down to a normal idle, 700 RPM maybe, check your timing at this point. Timing at idle will be somewhere around 10* but much more important is to check where that timing will be at 3,000 to 3,600 RPM. Should be 34-36* and stay at that point as you rev to 4,000 or 4,500. This is Total timing. This gives you best power and economy when running hard. Timing at idle is not nearly as important as your Total number. With Timing set you can tighten it up and check it once more as it can change as you tighten the distributor down. If you have to shut down for any reason, start the 20 minute break in all over again when you are ready, don't go thinking you have 5 minutes done so you only need 15 minutes more. Start over. You are training those brand new Lifters to Spin every time they hit the cam lobe. If one lifer does not spin it will take out a cam lobe in the first couple hours of use so give it the best chance to succeed and you are golden. You have one chance to do this right. Be careful, have an extra person on hand to help manage the water and check for leaks, help check temps, watch oil pressure etc. I am timid having seen cam failures and heard many horror stories. I have yet to have a cam go flat on me so I assume this process is good enough. Best of luck and while it is making noise at 2,000 RPM and you are bored waiting for the last 5 minutes to pass take a short video for us to enjoy! When I spoke to owners that had flat cam lobes, the common story was, " I could not get it to fire up" usually bad timing, trouble getting a gas feed flowing etc. The engine has to fire up quickly. Cranking and cranking on the starter is enough to cause lifter failure on start up. Sorry if you know all of this already, my hope is at least part of this is new and can maybe avoid a cam failure. Mark
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67 ski nat
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 9:00am |
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Motorheads, is there any advantage to being under load during break
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KENO
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 9:06am |
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I'd tell myself "it's mid February, spring isn't too far off" and work on your strut bushings
 Since the engine isn't in the boat, it sounds like you want to run it on the cradle it's sitting on and hope that whatever water you can supply is enough at 2000 unloaded rpm or so for 20 minutes. I you're worried about it, I think I'd start it on the stand to make sure it starts right up and has no oil or water leaks that show up right away , then turn it off drain the engine and manifolds and install it in the boat, A minute or so run time will tell you that info without screwing up your cam break in later. Then when you can back it into the pond on your property, take care of the cam break in process with all your instruments hooked up normally
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DenDen
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 10:48am |
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Thanks so much Mark for the information. I don’t believe I can get any better advice anywhere.
Just to answer a few questions, anyone has. We are going to put the motor in the boat before running it. We were going to do that today, but will wait for strut bushings to show up at the end of the week and probably get around to it next week. I am getting anxious to finish the boat and I think it’s going to turn out very nice. Mostly due to my participation in this forum. I can’t express how much apart of the CC family I feel. So many people have been so helpful. |
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MrMcD
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 11:40am |
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67 Ski Nat, cam break in and Engine Break in are two different things. You break in the cam out of necessity to avoid a flat cam and ruined lifters. Once this is done and the boat is on the water you can break in the engine.
A propeller driven boat is exactly like running an engine on a dyno. As soon as the boat engine is in gear it is under load. This is perfect to break in the piston rings. Once the engine is fully warmed up just accelerate from idle to 4,000 RPM and then back off to idle, do this 2 or 3 times and the rings are broken in. Don’t let it get hot or hold it at high RPM for any time at all. You can floor it and let it Rev up to 4,000 but back off right away. You are trying to avoid extra heat in the combustion chambers. Let it run at low load for a minute or two between these accelerations to avoid the excess combustion heat. New engines create more heat than a broken in engine and you need a few heat cycles to get all your parts seated in before running it hard. Probably should put at least an hour run time on it before putting a skier behind the boat. Check everything for leaks of oil or coolant. Check fuel lines for leaks. Then go enjoy it while watching the gauges to make sure oil pressure is good and coolant temps stay normal.
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Wilhelm Hertzog
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 3:42pm |
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No priming of the oil pump prior to starting the cam break in process?
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1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer
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KENO
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 4:21pm |
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This must be that group of people who don't believe in pre lubing the engine, otherwise they'd have some oil in the engine when they started the process.. Or maybe he forgot to mention that step Pre lubing is like foreplay,.............and things are usually better with some foreplay Den .........Are you still planning a run on the hose or waiting till you can dunk the trailer in the pond for the cam break in? Is this an engine you built from a bunch of parts and put the Summit Vortec heads on? ( and a Vortec to carburetor intake of one brand or another)
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MrMcD
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 6:19pm |
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Should have addressed Pre Oiling. If you don't know how the engine was assembled it is best to Pre Lube. In some engines it is mandatory to pre oil or the oil pump won't pick up and start working on start up. When using an oil pig it is critical to pay attention because if the pig goes empty it will apply air into the oil galleries and quickly blow the oil out of your galleries and into the pan so never let the pig go till it is empty. Many shops use the pig because it is so fast and effective. I have pre primed engines using just a speed handle with an attachment Taped to it. Tape, Yes, if your attachment falls off into the pan you will be pulling the pan to retrieve it. A speed handle offers plenty of power to pre oil. If I pre Oil manually I pump just long enough to know the oil galleries have filled and air in there is purged. This boat has a small block chevy. I lube every moving part on assembly, even the oil pump gears, with LL5 which is a high quality break in oil sold by Sealed Power. It is designed to integrate well with motor oil but provides a high level of protection on start up. On the small block Chevy I no longer pre oil if a quality assembly lube is used. The Small Block picks up oil well on start up will have oil in the rocker arms within 30 seconds of start up. If good assembly lube was used it is more than adequate for the start up protection till oil pressure takes over lubrication. If you use regular oil for assembly lube I would certainly Pre Oil since regular oil will drain off surfaces while a quality assembly lube retains a much better film of protection on the surfaces for a long time, months even. If your engine will sit for a period after assembly the assembly lube protects the internals for a long time. I have been in many professional shops that take the engines from assembly to the Dyno, fire them up and test them. You will hear the lifters quickly adjust as oil pressure hits and it is right at start up not minutes later. Brand new, no pre oil done. Again, I am only talking small block Chevy here and in experienced hands. If a high quality assembly lube is used on all internal moving parts where does that assembly lube go when a pre oil is done? Lots of it gets washed off into the oil pan by the pre oiling reducing its effectiveness. Pre Oiling is very good and many engines will not pick up oil pressure without it but the small block is pretty flexible it picks up oil fast so I do not worry about pre oiling when I assemble with good quality assembly lube. I called on the major engine builders on the West Coast for over 20 years from San Diego to the Canadian border I was exposed to many tips from those guys, some of them built 1,500 engines per month and sold them with warranty. I just observed to see what worked. |
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DenDen
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Posted: February-14-2024 at 8:47pm |
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I will try to answer all the questions above
I use talk to text so a lot of the time the words may be wrong, but you get what I’m saying. We started with a short block, rebuilt , Builder was difficult to find. It is a 70s four bolt Main, with a two-piece main seal on left-hand dipstick. Board 60 over. It has the correct casting numbers that are desirable I cannot tell you what they are Flat top single eyebrow pistons. We CCed everything and came up with the compression ratio, 9.4 to 1. The cam I will post the spec sheet on , Vortech, heads from Summit, dual plane aftermarket intake. Using the distributor from the 307 along with the oil pan and the carburetor. I know we will be getting a new carburetor and most likely a different prop after the initial break in. I plugged all the info into a horsepower calculator online, came up with approximately 350 HP, for what that’s worth. As for the cam break-in, I will follow all the information from above, which I greatly appreciate. Two items I might mention, the Oil will be rotella t along with the break-in additive. We used break in lube on everything. But I’m now hearing maybe should not pump the oil pressure up prior to starting as it only washes that away? Secondly, to cool the engine and exhaust during the cm break in I am going directly to the thermostat housing. That eliminates the raw water pump and having to worry about that. As someone mentioned earlier? The hose is only capable of supplying so much water, so why run it through the raw water pump? I did not know that we could post videos on this website? If that is true, just follow the same procedure as pictures?  bulk url generator |
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GottaSki
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Posted: February-15-2024 at 8:23am |
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Cam looks good bit spicy, lift is a bit low but 1.6 rockers could be a consideration down the road This worked for me last time.. Intake off.. First , burnished the pushrods to their lifter and rocker, with a length of paracord, 3-5 wraps around a pushrod, floss them a couple times, in short order a couple hundred pushrod rotations happen. I believe this promotes initial lifter rotation. rotate engine to burnish each one when on the base circle. I presume assembly lube was applied to your pushrod ends next, record the clocking of each lifter, by its circlip, or a marker if you can clean a spot. hand rotate the engine 10-20 revolutions. If each lifter rotated, you are more assured they will rotate on startup, and break in properly If one or more failed to rotate, you just save yourself a big mess later, and a have a chance to remedy without full disassembly chasing metal flakes. You could then swap a lifter, and determine if an issue moves with the lifter, or stays with the cam lobe, and thus determine the defective part |
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
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MrMcD
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Posted: February-15-2024 at 11:21am |
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First time I have heard of burnishing the push rods but it might help to get everything spinning.
As far as rotating the engine several times after full assembly I think you should avoid any extra rotations. It is well proven that some lifter failures are caused by slow rotations of the engine prior to start up. The cam hitting at slow speeds can scratch the lifter foot. Once scratched the lifter wont rotate, the cam follows the scratch and starts digging out the center of the lifter foot and eventually rounds off the cam lobe after start up. You want the speed of start up to get the lifter spinning. Another thing to check while the block is being prepped for the engine build is the lifter bores in the block. A quick polish of the lifter bores makes sure the bores don’t have any rough spots that could stop a lifter from rotating. Blocks sit around often after being torn down and cleaned for rebuild. Any bare metal will rust instantly including the lifter bores. A brake hone with fine stones could clean them up or even some 600 wet or dry sandpaper on a dowel or your finger can clean them right up. Just a quick wipe to make sure they are clean and smooth. But this engine is far past that and fully assembled, an engine builder would have done this as part of the rebuild but a boat owner/ builder might not think of it.
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wayoutthere
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Posted: February-15-2024 at 5:14pm |
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Remove the impellor from the raw water/sea pump, with the pump plumbed normally and belt on to spin the circulating pump and alternator.
Hook up the garden hose inline with the water intake hose as you would if the engine was in the boat so the transmission cooler gets water (don'tknow what type of engine stand you have or if the transmission is intalled) Make sure you have 3-4 feet of exhaust hose clamped onto the exhaust risers and turn on the hose. The water bypasses the thermostat to cool the exhaust upon start up, but without the sea pump impellor and with the engine not running you will get water flow. Water may still fill the cooling passages in the block via a / the tiny hole in the thermostat, so wait to start the engine once water begins to flow from the exhaust hoses (or pre fill the block thru the t stat housing hose) turn on the water and start the engine. No sea pump impellor means the garden hose wont get sucked flat causing the sea pump impellor to burn up at the rpm you are planning to run for that time period. Depending on city water pressure, hose dia and length etc etc and so on you may be able to turn the hose down based off how the manifolds feel to the touch once the engine reaches operating temp. Realistically it's more fun to stand next to the engine when it's running rather than trying to adjust the garden hose to the dance the t stat is doing. Besides at wot the sea pump is moving a lot of water thru the bypass and out the manifolds so the garden hose will never be too much. Edit in video. This is no sea pump impellor installed, first start of the engine 2 boats ago. https://youtu.be/A3HnTwI24UQ?feature=shared |
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KENO
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 7:42am |
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Den Den.....back to your original concern
Nobody knows how much flow your garden hose can put out....... so have you figured out how much? How long does it take to fill a 5 gallon bucket with your hose? You're just kinda wishin' and hopin' from the sounds of it that whatever it is will be good enough for 20 to 30 minutes at 2000 plus or minus a few hundred RPM. |
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DenDen
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 8:56am |
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Ken, you are right. Even if I know the gallons per minute out of my hose. I still have to know how many gallons per minute that raw water pump is capable of pushing.
Does anyone have any idea? I posted the question to see if anyone had been able to run it on a garden hose and I got the answer as yes they had. So I was going to try it. If anyone has any figures on that, I’d be happy to see them. What I feel is even more of a gamble now that I’m talking to everyone is this camshaft break-in. It seems to me I’m rolling the dice on that. I am currently gathering more information on what I have assembled. Such as Spring pressure on those summit heads? Run without valve covers to make sure pushrods are turning? That’s gonna be messy! As of right now I’m at a loss. |
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TRBenj
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 9:31am |
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Unless you have real weak water pressure, why not just use a tee on the inlet (one side open to the pick up) and connect the hose to that?
Bucket method is great for troubleshooting cooling system issues but not sure why you’d want to use that for cam break in. |
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KENO
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 9:57am |
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He's not, he wants to bypass the pump and supply the engine with his garden hose with some as of right now unknown amount of flow, but if he fills a 5 gallon bucket in "X" amount of time, he'll know his flow rate from the hose. Then we can all throw out our different opinions about whether it's enough to cool the engine and exhaust hoses for a 20 to 30 minute cam break in
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DenDen
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 10:48am |
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As of right now when we get the motor in and ready to go, I am just gonna go for it.
I’m going to use the hose and hopefully it’s enough to cool it. And follow Mark’s instructions above to brake cam in And I hope all will go well. I will keep you posted. It’ll be a couple weeks the way things are going |
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TRBenj
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 11:25am |
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Still not following the “why”. He’s resorting to that method because he knows the bucket method won’t keep up, right? I wouldn’t be attempting a science project during cam break in, but that’s just me. |
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KENO
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 12:29pm |
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Which is why somebody said this earlier in this thread. I think he's in a hurry
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wayoutthere
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 4:25pm |
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Copied and pasted from over on ths shamrkck site pcm engine sherwood pump.
(Probably not the same pump model as on the ski boat) --- ballpark. I looked up the GPM comparison between the two pumps, and the Sherwood definitely moves more water. In this summary, the Sherwood numbers are on the left: 1000rpms 9.5gpm(Sherwood) vs. 5.2gpm(Johnson) 2000rpms 19.5gpm / 12.0gpm 3000rpms 29.0gpm / 18.5gpm 4000rpms 32.5gpm / 24.5gpm 4500rpms 30.0gpm / 25.5gpm |
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KENO
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 6:23pm |
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Well it might be time to get set for a science experiment
Had a conversation with Den today and his water hose puts out just under 5 GPM from his well He'd be running an unloaded engine at roughly 2000 RPM for 20 minutes or so. So he'd be pushing roughly 55 degree ground water into the engine, bypassing the RWP and the exiting water would be cooling the exhaust manifolds and exhaust gases. It seems reasonable to think that this would work with no issues. Don't know what his pump puts out for flow, but a Sherwood G21 used on the PCM SBF's is about 4 oe 5 PGM at 1000 rpm and about 12 at 2000 RPM. His Chevy would be about the same heat load. That' 12 PGM is enough to cool a small block running fully loaded with a lot higher inlet temperature to the engine (think mid summer down south) without any issues so his 5 should be OK. He could take the thermostat out for his break in run for a little extra assurance that something like a stuck thermostat doesn't bite him and it'll take away a little flow restriction at the same time. Another thing he could do is supply his engine with a large tank truck full of water hooked to his RWP supply and have all kinds of water available. Sounds kinda far fetched but..................... his neighbor has one that he's volunteered to Den for this break in run. I think he has some unanswered valve spring issues that he's researching and assuming those are resolved, he's planning on a break in run for the cam. I think you got this covered Den (especially with the tanker)You could tie the two supplies together pretty easily too. Page 10 of the link has the pump curves for various different Sherwood impellers. The 09959 impeller curve is for the G21 pump mentioned above. It a pretty crowded graph but gives good info. |
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phatsat67
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Posted: February-16-2024 at 7:14pm |
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We did an abbreviated cam break in on HWs 351 (paid for the break in from cam research but were being cautious).
10-15 min at 1800-2200 rpm’s on my well hose bypassing the RWP direct to the stat housing. Ran dead on 140 the entire time with cool manifolds etc. that’ll be my method going forward for out of water initial run in. |
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DenDen
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Posted: February-17-2024 at 7:28am |
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Thanks phatsat67.
That’s the info I was looking for. No reason to risk running a pump that requires way more water than I supply it when it is so easily bypassed. No matter how I supply the water I only have 5GPM. Now I know that is as I suspected enough to keep things cool. Thanks to all for the participation in my quest to hear that glorious sound again. Back to SW restoration for updates. |
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DenDen
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Joined: July-20-2023 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 169 |
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Posted: March-22-2024 at 1:47am |
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I realized I did not finish this post. Some of the answers are on another post so I will tell you how this project went.
Started the boat with a little difficulty, but got it going soon. We installed some clear hoses so we could see the water flow The boat came up to temperature and balance between 160 and 180 the entire time Exhaust manifolds stayed nice and cool until the thermostat would open and then they would warm up slightly to about 120 to 140° I ran the boat at 2000 RPMs the entire time as I talked to the cam manufacturer, and we also got the lifters from and that is what he said to do. After all this discussion and worrying everything went fine. As of today, we just bolted on in new Holly avenger4 barrel carburetor. We will set the timing and wait for warm weather. |
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DenDen
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Joined: July-20-2023 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 169 |
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Posted: March-22-2024 at 1:53am |
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I also wanted to mention we used Maxima engine brake in oil.
It was recommended by a local shop and a little pricey, but probably worth it. |
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KENO
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Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10650 |
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Posted: March-22-2024 at 6:48am |
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I thought I'd add a word or 2 word to your quote above to keep the marine parts cops off your butt . |
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Jonny Quest
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Joined: August-20-2013 Location: Utah--via Texas Status: Offline Points: 2842 |
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Posted: March-22-2024 at 10:16am |
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That Holley Avenger 570 is a nice carby. The marine versions are hard coat anodized with PTFE coated throttle shafts. The fuel bowl sight windows are convenient when setting float levels. How did you handle the dual fuel inlet?
JQ
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Current
2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
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MrMcD wrote: