High Vacuum / Burns Oil |
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Guests ![]() Guest ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: January-04-2007 at 3:03pm |
I will try to be brief, Please help
1982 351 pcm rebuilt with <50 hrs. Problem is High Vacuum in both valve covers. Low Idle engine burns lots of oil, As RPM's increase seams to clear up. I have replaced pcv valve, not checked cylinder preasures yet. I have had some people tell me this is probably a intake leak problem ?, is this correct or is there a way to check. I do not want to pull motor again if not necessary. Any and all ideas are welcome. Thanks |
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advsouthwind ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: April-27-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 82 |
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check the vacuum hose from the valve cover to the back of the carb plate make sure it isnt collapsed. If it idles good i dont think it is a intake leak unless the whole gasket has moved internally/ or broke apart.Do a compression check make sure its not a cracked ring although that will usually cause high pressure in the crankcase pushing oil not a vacuum issue.Verify all vacuum hoses are in good shape . good luck
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gave up sea ray life for a 77 southwind 20 project just livin the dream
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nuttyskier2002 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: September-28-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 669 |
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How are you checking vacuum in the valve covers? Does vacuum go away when you pull the PCV valve out? What was done to the heads during rebuild. Badly worn valve guides are a source of oil burning during high vacuum.
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95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier
Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
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Guests ![]() Guest ![]() |
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I have not checked with a vacuum gauge, however when I remove the hose with the PCV valve and place my hand over the opening on the valve cover it will suck your hand down pretty good. Same when I remove the oil filler cap.
As far as what was done to the heads... They were replaced prior to the rebuild new. I do not believe they actually worked on them. I will have to check. Is there something I should look for ? to verify this. My understanding is there should be no vacuum activity in the valve covers. Is this correct ? Thanks for your help and coments. |
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nuttyskier2002 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: September-28-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 669 |
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Let me make sure I am clear on what you are saying. The hose that you are removing when you check vacuum at the valve cover - is that the hose going to the plate under your carb or is it the hose going to the flame arrestor (breather)? If you remove the hose going to the plate under the carb and you still have vacuum at the valve cover, you have a large vacuum leak somewhere (intake gasket, craked intake manifold, badly worn valve guides or something along those lines). If it's the hose going to the breather that you are removing I'd start by replacing the PCV valve.
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95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier
Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
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92cc ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: December-11-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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when you remove the pcv valve from the valve cover there should not be any vacuum in the crankcase(valve covers)to cause the amount of vacuum you are talking about you definitely have an intake leak or possible plug from bottom of manifold missing,very possible if plug was removed and not tigntened properly,if high vacuum is occuring with pcv installed but not when installed check crankcase breather for restriction,including spark arrestor especially if aftermarket
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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if anything you should have positive pressure in the valve covers PCV handles that and recirculates back through the intake side to burn those excess gases, Im going with nutty skier, something is wrong and i dont think it is a simple problem, it is something crankcase, intake related because you are seeing the problem on both banks, I have heard of guys putting the oil control rings on upside and so on.... was it a reliable shop that rebuilt the engine? if you are getting vacuum in the valve covers that means you are getting vacuum in the crankcase too... I'll bet you dont have any oil leaks. as always i would include a compression check to diagnose this one, please keep posting symptoms
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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92cc ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: December-11-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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the action of the piston moving down the cylinder creates the vacuum,if the rings were installed improperly and not sealing this cylinder would be able to create any vacuum and could not cause this problem,problem is definitely upper end,intake manifold and gaskets,or very bad valve guides and seals,my money would be on the intake.
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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I was not implying that the rings were on upside down,The statement was geared more towards (i always wanted to build a motor) i also was stating that the problem was not as simple as a bad pcv valve, I too would also lean toward maybe the guides on the intake and the exhaust valves, but.... he said they were new heads so being worn is highly inlikely, but he is pulling oil into the intake somewhere causing negative air through the system. also pull each plug and see if you can find one that is saturated with oil, this might help you pinpoint a problem. checking the plugs IS the first thing you should do, If you find a plug saturated on one cylinder you may have a torn intake gasket etc...during the intake stroke it can only get oil from 2 places the valley or the heads which both will also create vacuum in the system
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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Munday ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: August-17-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 538 |
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If you have vacuum at the oil fill,with the pvc disconnected,then I'd like to know is it intermittant like coming from one cyl. or is it equal at all times.This should be checked at extremely low idle.If its equal all the time I think ya got a manifold problem,if you feel a change in it then its probably just one cyl.and could be several things.I think by what you said I'm leanning towards cracked intake.
Good luck Munday |
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92cc ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: December-11-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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eric,I agree with you,just making sure 82 didn't freak when he read about rings,I have seen new/rebuilt heads with guides that losen up and fall down shortly after install,not very common,missed the part about heads being new,one good thing with the problem this bad should be easy to spot on disa$$embly.one last thing to think about,if heads were replaced,were they machined too much(if rebuilt)if so intake will need to be machined for it to seal properly.
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Thats a possibility 92, you never know thats why i made the statement ( i always wanted to build a motor) the old addage is true.... you pay for what you get. A good rebuilder and i stress a good rebuilder would catch a problem on a$$embly,
I dealt with a guy this summer that had his engine rebuilt by our local qaulity rebuilder, he had a problem and they chicken danced for the entire season. the engine was buried and a m-fer to get out, I did a trans for him in which by the way worked better than new ha-ha... anyways we found a head bolt missing, that was causing the block to fill with water and they had him doing all kinds of things... change this...change that... try this try that. I guess the moral is check them out before you buy and ask for references and call the references. Back to this guys problem, it was rebuilt with 50 hours on it, it smoked from the beginning... thats not normal for the first 10 hours as you were probably told, see my point. get your rebuilder invovled and make him stand by his warranty.... if you got one |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Ok I am back responding under new yet similar name. forgot my pa$$word.
Thanks for averyone's help I appreciate it. Update some info on my problem. The Heads were purchased new 2 years ago prior to rebuild. Rebuild had maybe 50 hrs on it. My boys were running the boat pretty hard wide open when it started smoking really bad. They shut it down and i have since been trying to figure it out. Today I did a compression check and cylender # 6 had 0 compression. I have since stripped the engine to pull out. Should I pull intake off and inspect anything special or any suggestions on how to proceed? Thanks for all the help from all. I will keep everyone posted because I have had many people stumped with the high vacuum in valve covers ???? |
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92cc ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: December-11-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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before pulling the engine remove valve cover on that bank and inspect valve train for proper movement(both rocker arms and push rods moving approximately the same and no missing pieces).
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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OK I will do that in morning and post results. Thank You
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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not good
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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nuttyskier2002 ![]() Gold Member ![]() Joined: September-28-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 669 |
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It sounds like you either have a stuck intake valve or a hole burnt in #6's piston. I'm leaning toward the burnt piston. Burnt pistons usually are the result of a lean air/fuel mixture.
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95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier
Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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especially the guys were running the boat hard and it was leaning out at the higher rpms, on problems like this in the beginning the first thing i do is pull the plugs and inspect, if one looks suspicious you know you may have a problem on that cylinder, then do the compression test, then at this point it will determine which way to go next.
the first thing a doctor does is checks your blood pressure and checks your weight, this is the same concept.then if the doctor determines low blood pressure he has to figure out why. in this case now you have to figure out did the piston burn from a lean mixture? if so you must also fix the problem once you've made the cure |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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I had a simple condensor problem this summer, I tried everything, new wires new cap and rotor in which they were new 2 weeks prior, i did the motor swap and the distributor was worn and put a new mallory distrbutor with points in (he couldnt afford the electronic unit)
the first thing i did was a compression test and it was even across the board so i new it wasnt a mechanical problem at that point i concentrated on the electronics. i thought it was a long shot and finally replaced the condensor, it was new with the distributor. sent him on his way of coarse i had to eat the days labor but i considered that days labor for the future. I also spent 2 days on another boat with the same engine and same identical problem...it ran like sh*t, changed everything as we always do, problem still there.... went to the parts store for more parts and ran into an old timer and started yacking about the problem, he asked about the tach and i remember the tach flickering, he told me to pull the tach wire off the coil and try running it, so i did..... you know the end of this one. as time goes by you get wiser on this stuff and it has a tendency to drive you crazy |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Eric-- If it is a hole in the piston can just 1 piston be replaced?, where do i go from here if this is what i find?
Thanks for the continued help. Going to garage now to start checking things out. It is Sunday maybe someone from above will help on this one !!! |
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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all the cylinders may have been running hot possibly causing the rings to shrink from the heat on the pistons, you are going into the unknown, look for overheated areas (purple spots etc...) you may also have dropped a valve or seat too. pop the valve cover on number 6 side and start there, if you find nothing pull the intake then the head, possibly bring number 6 to the top and peek through the spark plug hole,looking for damage. if you are getting 0 compression there is something seriously wrong.
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Morning update.
1. Pulled valve covers and rotated engine by socket on front of cam. All valves and rockers appeared to move top to bottom the same by the eye. 2. Pulled the intake off then head on side of # 6 cylender o compression test. 3. Hole in the piston !!! 4. I then pulled other head and things look ok to the eye ?? I can not believe the engine ran with a hole in # 6 piston ?? Have you ever come across this ? Where do I go from here?? I know I need to finish pulling the motor but should I go back to the engine shop that did the rebuild? They are what I believe to be a reputible shop (Gustaffengines.com) Rebuilds and sells rebuilds and builds race engines. I a$$ume more thorough inspection will need to be done but I really don't know what to expect especially after spending around $2,000 just 2 years ago. After talking to my son who was driving the boat he said they put some octane booster in the fuel... Would this have caused this? Is this a no no ?? I appreciate all your help. I am not real up & up on the internal engine building process but not afraid to dig in. I pulled and stripped engine last time and am now ready to pull again ??? Thanks |
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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if number 6 has a hole the other 7 pistons probably got as hot and chances are the rings shrank to the pistons due to the high combustion temp. how much octane booster did they use??? from my point of view octane booster is a NO NO, octane has alot to due with detonation, you will normally hear valve rattle if the octane is to low, you'll here it in your car going up hills and when you switch to premium grade it clears up. other than that reason there is no need for octane booster. possibly the engine running on the lean side along with the booster, and WOT it created the problem you have. there is no quick fix that thig got hot and not just number 6
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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92cc ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: December-11-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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another possibility,were the spark plugs the correct heat range and reach?also saprk plug wires can crossfire and cause detonation,especially common on Ford engines.
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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92cc
Since I changed the heads they no longer took the original plug. I bought the heads from Ford Racing Part # M6049P303. How do I determine the right plug? Temperature and length ? |
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Can you guys help me here?
Should I buy a long block / short block? where is the best place to purchase something to get me going again ? I will contact the shop that did my rebuild but do not know what to expect >>> |
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82 Nautique 1 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January-06-2007 Location: Rock Island, IL Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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here is a link to the style heads i put on my motor prior to the rebuild. I paid $240.00 each in 2001. Is this the same or equivilant gt40 heads that many people talk about ??
I am not really up on this but was recemended to buy them from Ford Racing and they had a shop only about 5 miles from where i live. My original stock heads were cracked so i installed theese. http://www.allfordmustangs.com/reviewpost/showproduct.php/product/336/cat/8 |
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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these guys should be able to identify these heads, the plugs are also a possibility, Im not the one to identify ford stuff, did you look at the rest of the block? check each cylinder wall for scuffing from the pistons expanding. How does the hole look on number 6?
your valves too may have taken some heat. Is there anyway you could take some pictures for us in detail and post them? we'll get you out of this cheap as possible Eric |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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eric lavine ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: August-13-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13413 |
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Your block may have temporarily flash heated just enough to do the damage it did and possibly may not have did more damage than we might think. right now its 50/50 pictures sure would help. A good indication that it got hot would be scuffing on the cylinder walls and the rings being shrunk to the piston.
You have to attack this the right way or you'll be doing this twice,If you think something will work fine it probably won't Eric |
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"the things you own will start to own you"
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92cc ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: December-11-2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 34 |
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the heat range of the spark plugs should be close to the originals,you should be able to cross reference both numbers to check,a quick way to check reach is to thread the plugs into the head and check the reach,should not have alot of/or any threads exposed,also check electrode lenght with original plugs,I have seen alot of holes in pistons from this problem.
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