Mountain vs. Mole Hill - Zinc Oils

Gang, time to play devil's advocate here. Flame away: Has anyone personally replaced a cam on a flat-tappet ski boat motor because of wear from using non-zinc oils? Or, has anyone even heard of someone replacing a cam on our PCM marinized Ford powerplants specifically, ever, purely do to wear despite regular oil changes with any reasonable (multi or straight 30 or 40w) oil? Could this be an issue reserved for more aggressive cam lobes seen on higher-performance engines? With our engines running 4400-5k RPM with stock marine cams and generally very mild modifications, is there a reason to really panic on this whole oil with zinc thing?

Further, who has broken down a flat tappet engine that has been running for 1000 hours and looked at the cam? How did the old cam look? TRBenj, how did the cam look in the 90 when you took it out? I'm sure that thing has seen a variety of oils over it's 18 year lifespan.

Obviously oil is cheap and getting the best oil is great, cheap insurance, and I'm all for it. I'm just trying to reign in the panic on the lack of zinc additives in newer oils and really get a scope assigned to the problem.

M3Fan wrote: Could this be an issue reserved for more aggressive cam lobes seen on higher-performance engines? Further, who has broken down a flat tappet engine that has been running for 1000 hours and looked at the cam? How did the old cam look? TRBenj, how did the cam look in the 90 when you took it out?

A few points:

- Modified engines with more aggressive (higher lift) cams, and more importantly, stronger valve springs are certainly more susceptible to failure with the newer oils. This is due to the greater forces that exist between the cam and lifter.

- The reduction of the zinc/phosphorus additives has been a gradual one. The process started in the mid 80's since most motors by then had gone roller. However, it hasnt been until very recently that the standards have all but eliminated them from most modern oils. The 15w40 Rotella (my oil of choice) is now included in that group, where a year ago it was not. This article in HotRod is a good read.

I didnt inspect my old cam very closely- but I doubt it would show serious signs of wear. Upon disassembly, it was clear that the motor had been well maintained- and thats more than half the battle. The older grades of oil (from just a few years ago) that had been run in it surely contained more additives than the current oils do, so it was adequately protected (even with the Fram filters .)

The point is that the standards keep reducing the additives, so those of us with flat tappet motors just need to be careful. Those of us with bigger cams and springs need to be extra cautious. Its not about spending more money (Rotella oil and Wix filters are very economical), its just a matter of staying informed. I havent built enough motors (1) to have experienced any failures, but Ive heard the stories and Im not taking any chances. I'll be switching to the straight 30w or 40w.

Another

Pontiac Site

Boat Dr, cool it. Please point out where I even expressed an opinion either way? I did nothing but ask questions, clearly prefacing it with a disclaimer about being a devil's advocate. I've heard you were a good guy from a few guys at the reunion- let's not spoil your image here. I think it's important that we're always asking questions and questioning common thinking, and that's what I'm doing here. Looking at issues from all sides. I'll refrain from typing a more livid/profane response at the moment.

boat dr VS M3Fan, newest CCF fued???

So basically (factory options for CC) every engine PCM has made to date has a flat tappet cam???

I'll refrain from typing a more livid/profane response at the moment


Do whatever turns your crank.You asked the question about the high hour motors and the amount of wear, my queestion to you was; If you would have read the reports of the failures first would you have asked that QUESTION, also the wording ....

Mountain vs. Mole Hill - Zinc Oils

I feel this is indeed a major problem that needed to be adressed, this is the reason I posted, not trying to slam nor degrade your knowledge, but as I try to do on this site.....SHARE KNOWLEDGE/GAIN KNOWLEDGE....
That sword cuts both ways,for me to become teachable I have to admit I am IGNORANT to certain facts,and this is who I am.
My Dad had a saying;
Ignorance is NOT KNOWING
Stupidity Is NOT WANTING TO KNOW

I have both of those charactor defects,I just try to keep the in balance.......boat dr

If I offended you , for that , my humble regrets.............

Your profanity is not needed to get you point across..................billy

Hollywood wrote: So basically (factory options for CC) every engine PCM has made to date has a flat tappet cam???

I believe the recent SBC's (Excalibur, and maybe the Apex and 5.0 HO base motor) are rollers. The 6.0 ZR6 is surely roller as well.

Im going to call Cam Research and see what they recommend for weight with the Valvoline.

Also, back to a question regarding diesel oil ratings- the diesel oil rating of the oil I have in the boat right now is "CL-4". Since "L" comes after "I" (CI-4 apparently has ZDDP) I'll assume my diesel oil has no ZDDP in it since it's a newer blend (CL-4). Looks like I'm stopping at Napa on the way home for some racing oil.

boat dr, your southern slang is really confusing me. "I" "J" "L" ???

"additives removed" means it doesn't have the zinc, the old stuff did. they don't add it then remove it.

Forget the designation, straight (diesel) 30T & 40T has or does not have zinc? Let's keep it simple.

Multigrade no longer has the zinc, need to look for the "racing" oil multigrade stuff?

Hollywood wrote: boat dr, your southern slang is really confusing me. "I" "J" "L" ???

He's referring to the API (American Petroleum Institute) standards. Each standard gets a new letter (I came before J came before L). Each subsequent standard has mandated decreased levels of zinc (not sure which standards made the biggest jumps).

Hollywood wrote: "additives removed" means it doesn't have the zinc, the old stuff did. they don't add it then remove it.

Correct.

Hollywood wrote: Forget the designation, straight (diesel) 30T & 40T has or does not have zinc? Let's keep it simple.

Doc is specifically referring to Shell Rotella-T. The 30-T and 40-T still have the zinc. The 15w40 apparently does not.

Hollywood wrote: Multigrade no longer has the zinc, need to look for the "racing" oil multigrade stuff?

For the Rotella lovers, they can still get it in straight 30w or 40w with the additives. Another choice would be to go to an "off road only" oil that doesnt have to comply with the API standards. Valvoline Racing is one such oil, there may be others. Their blends (10w30 and 20w50) still have the zinc additives.

M3Fan wrote: Any concern with the 50W side of the 20W50? I think my manual actually recommends 20W50 for low temp operation, but I'll double check.

That was my concern. I think my dad used to run 20w50 in the '92 though. Thats what the tech I spoke to at Cam Research runs in his boat as well.

I thought PCM's official recommendation on the Fords was to run either 30w or 40w (depending on air temp). I went with the multigrade because its supposed to have improved significantly in recent years. Id guess thats why its recommended on the new motors.

My head is spinning.
By what I've read here, which was quite entertaining, and after talking with one of our show team boat drivers, I think I'll be looking for the Valvoline 20W-50 racing oil for my 454. He has a 454 in his 95 Malibu and it just turned 3000 hours without a rebuild and has been running the Valvoline racing strait 50. We have been pulling 4-7 barefooters behind this boat weekly since it was new. Not too shabby.
Tull

TRBenj wrote: I just got off the phone with Cam Research. They confirmed what we're discussing as well with the zinc additives and the flat tappet cams. They recommend the Valvoline Racing (and also confirmed that the Rotella was good up until very recently). Specifically, they prefer the 20w50 in a boat regardless of climate. They seemed to think it has more zinc in it than the 10w30. They didnt think I would see a big difference in oil pressure coming from the Rotella 15w40 (maybe a little at start up). Im currently running 60-80psi once warm.

Joel, thanks for asking the question and Tim, thanks for making the phone calls. I've been trying to decide what to do with oil at my next change. 35 hours on the new motor, running Valvoline 20w50 racing oil. Looks like Cam Research believes in it and thats where my cam came from so I'll stay with the Valvoline.

My oil pressure with the 20w50 is 80 cold, 60 warm at idle and 80 warm with any rpms at all. I am running a high Volume(not high pressure)Melling pump. I origianlly had some lifter/rocker noise at cold startup but that seems to have lessened quite a bit now with a few hours on the motor.

My local Autozone has the Valvoline Racing oil on the shelf although their filter selection sucks.

90

what does it say for the 454?
Thanks

my90sn wrote: I can not find enough zinc in 20W40, so maybe I should use the heavier 20W50 Valvoline Racing. However in the fall and spring when the temperature is 60-75 I should probably use the lighter weight 10W30 VR. If any of this is wrong let me know. Either way I must drain the Moble1 that I have used for the past 25 hours immediatly, I claim Ignorance - Im a CC newbie in training. Does the saying "Once you go synthetic you must stay synthetic" have a valid point? Surely it will not out weigh the needs of the cam.?.? I don't know.

I would have agreed with you based on PCM's recommendation in the manual, but Cam Research said they prefer the 20w50 regardless of climate. Either way, I doubt you can go wrong with the Valvoline Racing.

Personally, I wouldnt hesitate to get the Mobil1 out, especially after hearing Munday's story. You have to do whats best for the cam.