Boat Dr. shell oil question

I hear that you have talked to the Shell people about Rotella. Did you ever ask them about their 5W40 synthetic and wether it has ZDDP? I run that in my diesel truck in the winter. I was wondering about buying a extra jug this winter for my boat. This would be for summer use just to clarify. I did buy some old formulation 15W40 rotella and Tim informed me that it was supposed to be straight 30 or 40 weight that has the ZDDP. I honestly don't have a problem running synthetic in my engine. I have switched back and forth in my truck for years during the hot and cold months. No issues at all.

But I was curious if you had any info on the Shell Rotella 5W40 full synthetic. 17 bucks a gallon. Still cheaper than most other synthetics.

Main reason for doing this is to get a few more hours out of my oil change. I almost always put 60-65 hours on my boat a year. 50 hours is oil change recommendation. I hate changing oil for 10 hours of use.

Any thoughts???

It might be worth a call to Shell to find out for sure. You didnt specifically talk to them about synthetics, did you Doc?

Ive been told that some Mobil1 synthetics in the heavier blends still have ZDDP, so maybe Shell has something comparable.

For what its worth, I wouldnt be worried about running synthetic in an older motor, though I personally wouldnt extend the OCI to 65 hours. Instead, Id change at 30-40 hrs to get even life out of the 2 changes. Then again, it probably wont kill your engine either.

Weather it makes sense or not, here is part of a discussion on airplane oil:


The following is from the Cessna Pilots Society Forum. Ed Kollin is the
chemist/engineer who helped design CorrosionX, Rejex and CamGuard. Might
have to change to Phillips 20W-50. Currently using AS W100 and CamGuard,
with much improved oil analysis wear indications since using CamGuard (1,000
hours on IO-520D).

MP

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FYI there is very little difference in the available oils.

Here is a breakdown of the different oils. They are VERY simple formulations
and all are compatible in any proportion. The viscometerics is the only
thing that will vary by mixing multi with straight weight.

AeroShell W100 - Solvent 600N commodity basestock, brightstock (thick)
commodity basestock, dispersant, antioxidant, antifoam, and pour point
depressant. 35 year old technology.

AeroShell W100Plus - Solvent 600N commodity basestock, brightstock (thick)
commodity basestock, dispersant, antioxidant, rust inhibitor, copper
corrosion inhibitor, antifoam, and pour point depressant. 35 year old
technology.

Phillips 20W-50 - Solvent 600N commodity basestock, brightstock (thick)
commodity basestock, viscosity modifier, dispersant, antioxidant, antifoam,
and pour point depressant. 27 year old technology

Aeroshell 15W50 - PAO synthetic basestock, solvent 600N commodity basestock,
brightstock (thick) commodity basestock, viscosity modifier, dispersant,
phosphate antiscuff, antioxidant, rust inhibitor, copper corrosion inhibitor
and antifoam. 20 year old technology.

Exxon Elite 20W-50 - PAO synthetic basestock, solvent 600N commodity
basestock, brightstock (thick) commodity basestock, multi-functional
(dispersant) viscosity modifier, phosphate antiscuff, antioxidant, and
antifoam. 15 year old technology.

In my opinion they are all poor. Would you except rust and deposits in your
car? Why do you in your plane?

Regards,

Ed

You should know I designed Camguard as the (minimum) additive package that
should be in aviation oil. I assume Shell did this as well. Exxon copied
Aeroshell 15W-50 so in a roundabout way they did also. Formulators
historically know what additives to put in piston engine oils, antioxidants,
corrosion inhibitors, anti-foam, etc. There are a few problems when you
formulate for a "specialized" case like an aircraft engine. Leaded fuel,
very high blow-by rates and ashless requirements make for interesting
challenges.

When Mobil AV1 came out using 100% PAO synthetic basestock, it was obvious
to me that they had little understanding of piston aviation. Shell then made
the same mistake, oops no we didn't, we only used 50% PAO (the worst
possible synthetic base stock for aviation).

Then they additized their oil based on the typical yet incorrect notion of
protecting the oil from breakdown as they would in auto or diesel oils. BUT
oils don't breakdown (oxidize) in the short amount of time they are in our
aircraft they become CONTAMINATED. And formulating for contamination is very
different than formulating for breakdown.

I know Shell and Exxon products are woefully inadequate. I know what is in
them and I have seen their lack of performance. I know they have 0.05% rust
inhibitor which is 20 times to low. I know they have 0.5% antioxidant which
is WAY to low. I know they use phosphate esters as anti-scuff agents whose
use is historic in nature not performance driven and not without real
problems.

I know these things and because Shell and Exxon use PAO and the additives in
the concentration they use I can only conclude they do not understand the
target engines they are formulating for.

This does not mean planes will fall out of the sky using Aeroshell or Elite,
but you would never accept rust or deposits in your car why do you in your
aircraft?

Camguard uses 11 high performance additives most of which are
multi-functional. They are all commercially available and expensive. I use
multiple ferrous and non ferrous corrosion inhibitors, multiple anti-wear
chemistries a very potent antioxidant/deposit control package. When I was
working on the Elite for Exxon I reported my findings. They were surprised
at the cost of the additive and VERY surprised at the recommended treat
rates. The final formulation was a copy of the Aeroshell 15W-50 for business
reasons.

So what do I think? I recommend what I use, Phillips 20W-50 with Camguard
year round. The additives in Camguard SWAMP those in Aeroshell 15W-50 and
Elite so why pay for them.

Well Greg you did it, you got me started.

Regards,

Ed

http://www.aslcamguard.com/index.htm

Tim, once again you have raised the bar.
As per our conversation, we are very low on the pecking order,very low tech engines we have guys. The big bucks are with the Hi Tech engines and the "superior" synthetics.
Again Tim,247,555 miles on a 3.8 MoPar with 20/50 castrol.Would a synthetic have done the same,and what would the cost break down be.
The other point Tim and I talked of was Oil Change Mandates....Oil being the cheapest component in my engine package , I feel that it heeds to come out when "DIRTY" not at a set hourly schedule.
Plus it gives me something to do on the old girl when she is not in the water....If I take care of Her she will return the attention.

The Lake wrote: I've always used Castrol, put it in my Ford truck, the ford car, the boat, and the old motorcycle (brand name not mentioned).

Chuck, Castrol is great oil (I used GTX on my Maxima that ran up to 250k miles before I sold it). You might want to consider changing brands on your old-tech flat tappet 318, though. Only a few oils remain that still have the heavy additives that we need (Shell Rotella 30w & 40w, Valvoline Racing VR1).

Chuck, good to talk to you again.As for the oil Tim and I have a lot of money and time tied up in our motors.With this said and the horror stories that are floating around ,wiped out cams etc., we did a little research to find an answer to this malady.
With a few calls and quite a few questions this is "How The Cow Ate The Cabbage".The pecking order puts us at the very bottom, few choices,but run the ZDDP or risk a tear down.You do the math.........

I have been reading up on this ZDDP issue (thanks to you guys for alerting me to this) & here are my personal conclusions:

1) Straight weight oil is a bad solution due to high startup wear: http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/index.html

2) Racing oil is also not a good solution due to wrong detergent package.

Therefore, I am just going to get aftermarket ZDDP additive & use that with a synthetic blend multi-weight automotive oil. Here is the one that looks good: http://www.zddplus.com
It's expensive, but so are cams.

Just for grins & giggles, I will be getting an oil analysis at my next 30 hour oil change. That should provide some hard data, hopefully supporting my decision.

As a footnote, I see in the 'Motor Oil 101' series that cold-stored oil degrades - I will be changing oil again in the spring!

Chris

SNobsessed wrote: 1) Straight weight oil is a bad solution due to high startup wear: http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/index.html

On one hand, I'd say this guy spends more time discussing what he is going to say than actually saying it. On the other, this is interesting info and is sure to stir the pudding around here!
Who's switching to 0W-30?

SNobsessed wrote: 2) Racing oil is also not a good solution due to wrong detergent package.

Thats a blanket statement that does not apply to all racing oil. I have spoken to the techs at Valvoline, and their conventional racing oil (blue bottle) falls into this category- it has minimal detergents and has a recommended OCI somewhere on the order of ~500 miles. The VR-1, on the other hand, has a detergents package similar to that of their street oils. It has a recommended OCI of >3000 miles.

You have to remember that just about any oil that still has the ZDDP is going to be classified as Off-Road or Racing oil since it does not meet the most recent (or any) API standards. They are NOT all created equal.

I happen to agree with you on the advantages of the multivis blends in regards to cold start protection- last summer I ran VR1 in 20w50, and am trying out a mix of 10w30 and 20w50 for next season.

Riley wrote: Tim, you're mixing your own blends? How do you judge if their any good?

Im not mixing my own blends- I just put in 2 qts of 10w30 and 3 qts 20w50 this past oil change. Both are VR1. It appears to be a common practive over on BITOG. I figured it might get my oil pressure down a little, as Im seeing 50-70psi with the 20w50.

SNobsessed, sounds as if you were going to "do your own thing" regardless of the info gained or lost here.
Your motor , your money, I say go for it...As for as the extra wear with a single vis. oil I think it is a MOOT POINT.
My stroker gets oil pressure instantly,I am far more concerned about cam and tappett wear than wear and tear on the bottom end.
As you will note this is why we are running the Rotella,CAM PROBLEMS.You are probably smarter than the people at Shell anyway.Once you get that formula correct and it will live for 50 plus hrs. with no cam issues post back.
Then I will be willing to listen to your theories, but for now its Rotalla 40 T for me..........

I run straight 40 valvoline, although I have been leaning towards the VR-1 20w-50. Midwest CC recommends the straight 40. They also said they don't recommend using the 10w-30 until late fall. I have run the straight 40 late into the fall with out problems. I allow the engine to run for a couple minutes at the launch before taking it off the trailer.

for what it worth..there are many many many people including myself you run rotella t 15-40 synthetic our motorcyles..there are very high revving 14,000 rpms engines similar to the boat motors revs..heres some info i have read:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html
www.bobistheoilguy.com
www.themotoroilsite.com

at 16/a gallon i also run it in my truck..still change the oil every 3000 miles, no problems here..gonna start running in in my boat this year over the pennzoil 15-40...

if they run it in 80,000 + engines that its good in my little engine ..like which is better nike or reebok...ford or chevy..auto vs. stick

i would runthe rotella t and not do anything else..why use an additive package?..oil is oil for the most part..its a lubricant..i hoghly highly doubt if you used mobil one pennzoil amsoil or whatever its gonna make a big difference..oil companies put out several different oils and so called statements so the consumers buy into them..the rotell t is one of the best oils out there..why switch??your paying 16/ a gallon for synthetic..run the piss out of it and change it every 50 hours...