87 BFN Exhaust Manifold Porting |
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5778 |
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There goes Joe making perfect sense again.
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You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails
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cadunkle
Groupie Joined: August-17-2012 Location: NJ Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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Wow that's a heck of a mismatch. Hitting that wall out the port is surely creating turbulence as the exhaust exits the exhaust port and enters the manifold. Since you've got them off I would match the ports. Just wait to be sure the gasket your using is a match or very close to the heads you're gonna use. I wouldn't go crazy working that short turn entering the manifold but I would smooth out any rough areas or casting flash you can reach.
I wouldn't have thought there was so much of a mismatch, now that I know I'll be checking and gasket matching my 454 manifolds whenever I have a reason to have them off. Doesn't take much time, can't hurt, and probably will help a bit. No reason not to do it if you've got it apart. All the little attention to detail items add up to a better running harder pulling engine. |
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SNobsessed
Grand Poobah Joined: October-21-2007 Location: IA Status: Offline Points: 7102 |
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Conjecture: would the water cooling of the hot exhaust be reducing back pressure? If yes, would that effect be the same in all manifold styles?
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Absolutely agree on your theory Joe but aren't the old interceptors, chryslers and OMC logs those square suckers that look like a block of wood sitting on each side of the engine? Or at least they if they're round they have absolutely no taper to them going toward the riser. If so, then yes, those would be horrible. The gases would be like hitting a wall and pure pressure is the only thing forcing it out the risers. The short radius bend coming out the exhaust ports on newer logs are turned toward the riser end and the log is tapered toward the riser end to at least get the gases moving in that direction. Then in the case of a 1:1 tranny, the logs are even tilted back and down for more scavenging effect. Nothing has to work against gravity. Gases on a PCM pyramid manifold have to go straight up several inches against gravity before the gases hit that wall of a riser. Short radius bends, a riser that practically has to stop and completely redirect the gas flow and gravity are all working against those PCM's. Not to mention that there has been some form of flow testing done that, even though crude (no disrespect Alan), has proven that logs do flow better than than those heavy, ugly ass PCM pyramids. I'm still of the opinion that a newer aluminum or stainless log with a 30 or 45 degree elbow has to be more efficient. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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halfnelly
Senior Member Joined: January-14-2013 Location: Maitland, FL Status: Offline Points: 253 |
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I don't think that 800 degree, high velocity exhaust gasses are affected by gravity too much. Otherwise, no racers would still be using zoomie-style headers. Plus, as Joe mentioned, there's much more to it than just flow. I'm sure a good set of 1 5/8" shorty headers would probably flow around the same as a pair of 1 5/8" longtubes on a flow bench, but the longtubes would make more power on a running motor since the runners are closer to the proper length for each cylinder pulse. The runners are obviously slightly longer in a PCM than a log (almost like a set of block hugger headers), as opposed to a log-style manifold that is similar in design to an automotive cast-iron exhaust manifold. |
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mark c
Gold Member Joined: May-09-2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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Well I'm nearing the time to put the exhaust manifolds back on, so I busted out the grinder and went at the exhaust manifolds (only one so far). Took about an hour to get this far and I still have a bit of cleanup to do on cylinders 3 and 7 but you can see between the ported one and the virgin one how much material came out. I painted the face of the manifold engine orange using the gasket as a mask to use as a guide , Theres just a bit of orange left on the ported manifold and some of that is down inside the port. The difference in the port size between the two manifolds is pretty large, and it should make some kind of difference in the way the engine performs.
. Now I just have to get at the other one. |
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DayTony
Gold Member Joined: June-30-2013 Location: Salem MA Status: Offline Points: 832 |
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nice, job, don't forget to check alignment with your gaskets too.
Did you bolt the manifolds up the the head and look down inside or just go by the exhaust soot marks as to wether they match up or not? |
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1988 Barefoot nautique-454
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mark c
Gold Member Joined: May-09-2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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Its gasket matched to the exhaust manifold gasket which is maybe 1/32 of an inch larger than the exhaust ports on the heads,
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TRBenj
Grand Poobah Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Online Points: 21171 |
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Wow, looks great.
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mark c
Gold Member Joined: May-09-2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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Just looking at the gasket markings on the manifolds when they came off you wouldn't think there would be that big a difference in the port sizes, and until I put the unported one up next to the ported one I didn't realize how much they needed to be opened up to match the heads, but theres the evidence. The ports are probably 20 to 25% larger than they were when I started.
Before i cut the second one, I may try a simlar setup to what was discussed above with the shop vac and manometer to see how much, if any difference there is in pressure drop there is between the ported and stock manifolds. |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6157 |
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So much for the 330 hp big block. That much restriction stock engines should make 350!
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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Great idea. |
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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I would bet that this is pretty common with most exhaust manifolds on these boats. I would also agree that it has to make a difference in the breathing. The exhaust gasses hitting those sharp edges have to cause some power robbing restriction. Just getting rid of those sharp edges has to be fairly significant.
These were mine when I did my rebuild. Before and after. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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quinner
Grand Poobah Joined: October-12-2005 Location: Unknown Status: Offline Points: 5828 |
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A secret source told me you guys need to be straightened out on this subject.
It should be to the heads port unless you are doing both. Exhaust only will create a pressure drop and the engine can loose back pressure and not run as well. Got It?? |
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JoeinNY
Grand Poobah Joined: October-19-2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5698 |
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Tell your source to work on their reading comprehension… the people here are talking about matching the exhaust to the existing head ports, which is fine. Going past that would in fact be not advised, but that’s not what’s being discussed. I doubt there is a ton of usable hp to be gained either way but done well porting the pcm manifolds to match the heads in my experience does at least make them sound better.
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81nautique
Grand Poobah Joined: September-03-2005 Location: Big Rock, Il Status: Offline Points: 5778 |
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Really all you're doing is gasket matching for a smooth transition from intake to head to exhaust. This isn't really a measured port job that could have real consequences in either direction, it's more of a clean up of mating surfaces.
Quinner, On the motor you have for the MQ the heads were proffesionally ported and flowed, Then I gasket matched both intake and exhaust before and after |
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phatsat67
Grand Poobah Joined: March-13-2006 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 6157 |
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Those RHS Heads look bad ass.
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backfoot100
Platinum Member Joined: January-03-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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Look at you!!!!!!! Mr. Wizard...LOL True Dat, but my assumption is if you're going through the process of gasket matching the exhaust ports, at bare minimum, the intake to head matching has also been done (but you know what happens when you ASSUME....right). My bad if it's to the contrary. You really just want to smooth the flow and eliminate the sharp turns and/or edges. Anything that hinders flow is a bad thing. I don't know about the back pressure thingy, but smoothing the flow will never hurt anything. Period. If you've gone that far, you might as well do the head porting then. That's where you'll really see some HP/torque gains. Then if you have a four hole carb adapter, you should match that with the carb throats as well. It all works together from start to finish. It's extremely time consuming to do but the net results can be pretty significant. I have no idea how much difference it really made doing all this when I did my rebuild but I couldn't imagine not doing it in hind sight. It runs pretty well. |
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When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded.
Eddie |
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mark c
Gold Member Joined: May-09-2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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Yeah you're right its not technically porting, but when you have a manifold mismatch as bad as this, with a 1/4" to 5/16" high flat wall on the short radius of a PCM manifold it can't hurt. The lighter grey area in the picture is all on the face of the manifold , none of it is on the inside of the port, and its a flat machined edge that the exhaust gas hits head on coming out of the cylinder.
Porting heads in a relatively low rpm operating engine, is not really going to buy me much anyways, Unless you really want to go crazy with modifications to the rest of the head and spending huge money on some custom cam work this "gasket matching" will at least bring a stock BBC engine back up to its 330 HP factory raating and at the moment with the engine still apart, its not taking any time away from using the boat and its relatively free so why not. My 820 heads flow relatively well for a factory cast iron head but by know means are they the best ones out there, these are typical numbers vs valve lift for these heads stock out of the box and the exhaust flow is fairly weak to begin with. no matter what kind of exhaust they are bolted to.. INT EX .2-145--------132 .3-207--------166 .4-256--------193 .5-295--------201 .6-308--------214 .7-301--------221 The other thing to note is that in my case I'm going from peanut port 236 casting oval port heads that really suck on the exhaust side to the 820 heads. So if it was choking off exhaust flow before, it will really be chocking it now, so any little bit helps. peanut port flows: INT EX .2-125--------87 .3-183--------111 .4-215--------130 .5-233--------144 .6-235--------150 You will have real trouble finding a reasonable (under $500) BBC reverse rotation cam with lifts much over .5" so every so you certainly don't want any extra material in your exhaust cutting down your flow unless you've got deep pockets.. The only thing i did to my heads was to lap the valve seat, put in new under cut stem SS valves, and new umbrella seals. The heads themselves had nothing else done to them. |
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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You say port mismatch but on the exhaust I had always heard the above picture is correct - the exhaust manifold is larger than the port. The exposed ridge of the head also slows exhaust gas reversion. |
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C-Bass
Platinum Member Joined: November-18-2008 Location: Columbus, IN Status: Offline Points: 1248 |
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Aren't we looking at the manifold here Gary? If so it's the head port that is larger and the manifold ridge is exposed.
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Gary S
Grand Poobah Joined: November-30-2006 Location: Illinois Status: Offline Points: 14096 |
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Your right Craig the closer I look I see it now,optical illusion I guess or old age-- so if it was changed around like I thought it would be ok
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mark c
Gold Member Joined: May-09-2012 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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Yes thatis a PCM pyramid exhaust manifold flange for a 454 Chevy not the ehaust port on the head.itself, the blue behind it is the rug in the boat, not the paint on the head. (Plus its a Chevy, it should be orange - I don't care what color the marinizers paint them) The exhaust manifold has a way smaller port than the head has.
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8122pbrainard
Grand Poobah Joined: September-14-2006 Location: Three Lakes Wi. Status: Offline Points: 41045 |
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The eye's are going from all those years of looking at the tracer colors! |
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