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Raw Water Pump questions

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Big Jim Slade View Drop Down
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    Posted: April-14-2014 at 4:24pm
So my 68 Mustang has always had some minor cooling issues. Shortly after buying the boat I noticed the only time my temp started to climb was when I was just cruising the lake at idle speed. It became obvious that my boat liked having some water forced into the front facing angled raw water inlet. This issue got slightly worse once I added a Sherwood sea strainer and associated plumbing (taxing the raw water pump even more).
Since I like skiing more than driving, I've had to ask others to drive my boat and have always said "watch the temp gauge like a hawk" and if it starts to climb, shut it down. Of course novice drivers don't always do this and the boat was overheated a few times in the last 10 years (always cooled back down slowly without pumping cold lake water into a hot motor).   
Last season I finally broke down and did a head gasket, head work (machining, new valves & springs) and everything that goes with it (new block circulation pump/hoses/intake and exhaust gaskets/etc.). Towards the end of the season I had a couple more instances of the temp starting to climb when going slow. With all the time and $ recently put into Big Jim I want my cooling to be completely stable. This leads right back to my raw water pump. Since the beginning my Interceptor marinized 302 Ford V8 has always been a tricky one to get the right parts for (even for SKIDIM). From what I know none of the new raw water pumps sold fit my boat including SKIDIM Item# 0601 (looks quite different than mine). I'd like to replace the raw water pump with something that flows more, but don't want to start a major engineering project to do it. If any of you have experience with/know about water pump compatibility with late 60's Mustangs I'd love to hear from you. I'll include some pics of my setup so you can see what I'm dealing with.

I should also note I've never been able to remove the last section of hose before the pump, put it into a bucket of coolant and winterize this way. This should speak to the weakness of the pump or its air sucking tendencies.






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TRBenj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-14-2014 at 6:30pm
There is nothing wrong with that raw water pump based on your symptoms. Even if there were, it could be rebuilt. It shares many internal parts (impeller included) with the Sherwood used on every PCM Ford through 2002 on the gt40. It's a good pump. Don't change it.

Your symptoms (overheat at idle) are consistent with an air leak between the pick up and RWP. The boat does not require water to be "forced" into the pickup with speed. Rather, the increased rpm of the pump that comes with greater engine speed was able to overcome the air leak and allow you to cool back down underway. The addition of the strainer in line exacerbated the problem because you added more parts and fittings that could potentially cause an air leak.

Take a look at all of your parts and connections between the pick up and rwp. Suspect hoses (esp with splits at the ends) should be cleaned up or replaced. All hose clamps need to be tight- a screwdriver may not get them right enough. Careful not to overtighten and deform soft parts though (like the trans cooler), as that will introduce air when it's out of round. The strainer needs to have a good o-ring and the bowl needs to be TIGHT.

Doing so should solve your problem. That boat should stay cold at idle all day long.
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Big Jim Slade View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2014 at 2:00pm
Thanks Poobah. What this tells me is I need to rebuilt it, as it doesn't even have the suction to pull coolant into the motor with the short little section of hose you see going into the bucket (last pic). I can guarantee you the hose clamps were all triple checked as well. I noticed a decade ago that the shaft was slightly bent and the brass backing plate wasn't in the best shape. This tells me the air issue is with the pump itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2014 at 2:06pm
Youre correct that the pump should be able to empty that bucket in short order. If it cant, then you either have the inlet and outlet switched, or the pump needs to be rebuilt.

The most common failure mode for a pump drawing air and requiring a rebuild is an overheat at speed (not idle like youre experiencing), but that's not the only possibility. Depco can either rebuild that pump for you or supply the kit for you to do it yourself. Beyond a press, I dont believe there are many specialty tools required. Might want to call and ask them!

http://www.depcopump.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2014 at 2:24pm
Definitely don't have the in and outs switched, so I'll get started on a rebuild.

Got this info about a rebuild.

http://www.sherwoodpumps.com/en-us/Products/Engine+Cooling+Pumps/Crusader/P10700G_Detail/Literature.htm

Engine Cooling Pumps : Crusader : P10700G

Applications:
Interceptor
Pleasurecraft

P10700G
Engine Model: Interceptor

Engine Part Number:

Pump Availability: Obsolete

Sherwood Replacement Pump: N/A

Impeller Kit: 09959K

Minor Repair Kit: None Available

Major Repair Kit: 12252

Inlet Port: 3/4" NPT

Outlet Port: 3/4" NPT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2014 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Big Jim Slade Big Jim Slade wrote:


http://www.sherwoodpumps.com/en-us/Products/Engine+Cooling+Pumps/Crusader/P10700G_Detail/Literature.htm

For the bennifit of all and for Matthew who STILL can't get a proper link on the site even being with us for 10 years.
Here's a link


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TRBenj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-15-2014 at 11:41pm
You'll have to excuse Pete, his Motorola Tracfone from 1997 can't access the internet, so he's probably never visited the mobile version of this site... So he's likely unaware that it doesn't support some of the features of the full site (like links and photo uploads).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 12:00am
Originally posted by TRBenj TRBenj wrote:

You'll have to excuse Pete, his Motorola Tracfone from 1997 can't access the internet, so he's probably never visited the mobile version of this site... So he's likely unaware that it doesn't support some of the features of the full site (like links and photo uploads).

Why do I need to be "excused"? I don't have a problem posting links but it seems Matthew does no matter what he is using to post. As stated, I simply simplified the link for the convenience of anyone on the site.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 12:08am
It's unfair to give people a hard time about not posting "proper" links when there's a good chance that the version of the site they're using doesn't allow them to. No one can upload pictures or create hyperlinks from the mobile version of this website unless you know how to code the HTML in your post. The buttons that support those features on te full site don't work on the mobile one.

I'm not sure you even realize that a mobile version of this site exists, let alone it's shortcomings- but the fact remains that a lot of people use it. So youre excused.
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martin 74 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martin 74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 1:04am
That hose on your RWP looks ancient. Can't you just cut it off and replace it?
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Gary S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 1:06am
I had my pad for about a year and it still confuses me.Should take a class. In the fall I only took it to Florida and was kinda lost,mostly with pictures. So if I have to post a link or a picture I get out the laptop otherwise it's the pad or phone
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 2:39am
Two things that will affect the pumping of the sherwood is the impellor and the cam. If the impellor blades get a flat spot worn on the tips, it will not prime itself in neutral. The cam is the brass piece at the bottom that the impellor bends against. The seal kit only keeps the water away from the bearing, and it will pump just fine with a worn seal kit and sling water drops up to the flame arrestor.





You don't need a press to take the pump apart, it has snap rings in it.
What style thermostat do you have? The original had a trap door style opening and a weep hole to the side. Both of these are marine t-stats, but different styles. I can't find the pic of my original t-stat.

I use one like the left with a 1/8" weep hole off to the side like the original and stays constant, now temp swing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 6:14pm
Thanks everybody (even those ripping me for a bad link which works fine if you C & P it into your browser BTW).

That one section of hose is old, but it works fine, is air tight and I cut a replacement section a couple years ago that I keep on the boat just in case.

Here's the latest. Spoke with David at Depco Pump in FL yesterday and he sounded very knowledgeable. Only issue using them for a rebuild is cost. For some reason he quoted $282 for the rebuild kit, $209 for a new shaft (which it now looks like I don't need) and something like $60 for labor. Add round trip shipping from MN to this and I'm looking at over $600 to make this happen. On a bright note Marine Parts Source sells the major rebuild kit (the only one available) for $117 and since "major" doesn't look all that major (3 parts other than the impeller and gasket) I think I'll do it myself.

Not sure about my stat. I do know it's not something I've replaced and I've replaced a lot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 6:17pm
One more thing, like any good boater, the RWP gets a new impeller every season and sometimes twice a season if I need to remove it and my hemostats do any damage to the blades. It's not an impeller issue that's for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 7:56pm
If you end up taking it apart that far you might as well change the bearings too. You can get the numbers off them and go to a local bearing supply. You could save yourself some money by not changing that impeller so often,cannot even tell you the last time I even had mine out. Every year is real overkill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-16-2014 at 9:13pm
That seal kit is about $35, 3 pieces. A rubber seal, spring and a ceramic piece. The only other part is the bushing cup (doesn't come in seal kit) where the end of the shaft rides in the back panel that you take off to change the impellor. There is only one bearing, on the front held in place by a snap ring, is nothing special, I replaced mine with a throw out bearing, perfect match/size for about $12 at NAPA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2014 at 4:28pm
Got a part number and vendor for the seal kit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2014 at 5:52pm
To remove your stuck hose from the pump heat it with a hair dryer or heat gun, when it is really warm work the edge with a small screw driver, flat blade with the blade coated with liquid dish soap.
Gently work the blade in, add more soap and while working it in twist on the hose a little in each direction. It will pop off. The heat will make it flexible and the soap will keep those parts you work loose from sticking again aiding in removal.

I have boated with the same group for over 25 years, we all have tournament boats. We change the impeller every two years and it never fails. And we carry spares. Over the 25 years a couple times one or more of us has forgotten to change the impeller and it failed on the third year. Once my buddy and I had changed our impellers at the same time. Three years later we were on a 4 day ski trip. His failed, we installed my spare in his boat. Two days later mine failed and we had to make a fast trip to the boat shop as we were out of spares. We stick to the two year rule now. Rubber ages with time, heat, exposure to ozone and use. We only use the boats 25 hours per year and in California there is a lot of heat but our 2 year rule has never failed us on the impellers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tim D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-18-2014 at 6:58pm
The part number is in the photo above. Call David, 910-247-6201, he order it for me several years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-29-2014 at 7:16pm
Parts have arrived, pump is out of the boat and I'm ready to get started. Can anyone shed some light on proper disassembly and reassembly procedures? Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-29-2014 at 7:28pm
That's the most failed impellers I've ever heard of, yikes.

Like Gary I can get several years and hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of one.

I've ruined one impeller but the blades were perfect. Splashed the boat last spring with a totally dry block and the brass spun loose of the rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-29-2014 at 7:42pm
Here you go- Sherwood Pump,if you completely disassemble the pump do not try to remove pulley from the shaft.Repair should basically be the same but if you know your pumps model just google it and the page should come right up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Slade Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April-29-2014 at 7:49pm
Thanks Gary. Looks like exactly what I need.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldSchoolBlue84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-07-2014 at 12:57am
Looks like I will need to rebuild my R/W pump. Just got done dewinterizing her this evening and heard a rattle notice (sounded like a loose bearing) coming from the R/W pump. I have not installed the new impeller yet to get a better inspection of the pump. If it needs a repair, most likely, does anyone know the part number? Its for the 84SN2001. Thanks, do appreciate it!    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldSchoolBlue84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May-08-2014 at 11:56pm
Well took another look at it today and nothing, the water pump sounded good. Took it apart to install the new impeller and everything was solid, no slack, nothing loose. I already ordered the parts and will just monitor it. What gives? Have a good one. Looks like Sunday will be the day the boat gets dropped in.
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