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GT-40 Pro Boss Starting Issue after Running

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-21-2016 at 12:51pm
Gun Driver, if the high pressure pump can be taken apart you could find a replacement electric pump to install inside the factory pump case. Carter, Airtex and Bosch are three good sources. Many automotive in tank pumps have replaceable motors. These are usually less than $150. If the Nautique pump can be taken apart the motor will have numbers on it you can look up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-23-2016 at 11:37pm
Same issue today, ran for 45 minutes or so, shut engine off for awhile, and wouldn't start. Fortunately was upriver from the dock and had some beer on ice in the cooler. Drifted downstream, enjoyed a cold beer and it eventually started again. Very frustrating and I am getting nervous that I don't have a fix and have plans for a boating vacation in a week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2016 at 11:22am
I got nothing for you guys.
I've been through the fuel system from tank through system and back to the tank.
Thought I had something from Lewy's suggestion on testing for a leaky injector. When hot I shut it off, jumped pumps till pressure was up to 39. Started the timer opened a beer and watched the gauge. Held tight till about the 6-8 minute mark then you could just watch the gauge drop to almost zero. So I started thinking something has to be allowing the fuel to return back to the tank after sitting. Besides the HPP I've changed everything else except the fuel pressure regulator. I thought this must be the culprit it sits at the top of the system and at the end of the rail and returns fuel to the tank "has to be it"
So on to Rockauto to find the year for the right regulator ('92 5.8) called Petes favorite parts store and 20 bucks later in it goes. Since I was at the lake with limited tools I ended up removing the intake tubes for easier access. Pumped up the pressure and it held buttoned everything up when for a ride came back and once again after a beer or two NOTHING!!!!
Damn!!!!!
So what I think is happening is there's something in the HPP like a check valve that is going bad and allowing the fuel to back flush out the return port after sitting.
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and buy a new HPP when Skidim gets them in test and if all is good I will dissect the old pump to see what I can find inside.
I'll keep you posted.
By the way a jumper wire, fuel pressure gauge with a pressure relief hose and an empty beer bottle saved the trip. Anytime it would act up I just drained the air with the pumps jumped to run continuously and off we went took about a minute to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2016 at 10:26pm
I took my HHP (high pressure pump) off today to 1) determine firsthand how difficult it would be and what tools were needed, and 2) to be able to take it to local auto parts stores / marinas to see if they happen by chance to have a replacement.

If I can't find one in the next day or two, I will have to order from Discount Inboard Marine if they do in fact have some coming in at the end of the week. That would mean I would have to send next day air to our vacation spot and swap out at the dock, which is exactly what I don't really want to do.

Paul, how exactly do you jump the pumps? Any pics or detailed explanation would be helpful.

Thx -Tim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2016 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by tnplicky tnplicky wrote:


how exactly do you jump the pumps? Any pics or detailed explanation would be helpful.
Thx -Tim

Tim,
It will be in the poor mans gt40 diagnostic thread in the FAQ thread.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2016 at 10:56pm
Thx Pete, I will look again. I remember seeing something on it in one of the forums but couldn't re-locate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2016 at 11:07pm
That's a special pump I don't think you'll find it anywhere else
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-24-2016 at 11:35pm
Yeah, I know its a long shot, but if I can find something this week before we go on vacation I will feel a lot better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-25-2016 at 2:08pm
This is how to jump the pumps get yourself a fuel pressure tester with a relief hose and you will be able to make it through the week
http://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/fuel-pressure-tester/actron-fuel-pressure-tester-kit/84174_0_0/?checkfit=true

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-25-2016 at 2:19pm
Yep, got me one of those now (fuel pressure gauge). Thanks for the pic on how to jump 'em.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-25-2016 at 11:03pm
Is the jumper a special set-up or is it just a basic wire/aligator clip from the lower right pin out to ground on the mounting panel?

What's the block thingy (?) in middle?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-26-2016 at 1:05am
Fuse


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lewy2001 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-26-2016 at 2:03am
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

Thought I had something from Lewy's suggestion on testing for a leaky injector. When hot I shut it off, jumped pumps till pressure was up to 39. Started the timer opened a beer and watched the gauge. Held tight till about the 6-8 minute mark then you could just watch the gauge drop to almost zero.


Paul since it held pressure for over 3 mins it passed the test for leaking injector or pressure regulator. Yours holding pressure at 39 for 6-9 mins is way better than mine. From memory mine was marginal at 3mins before it dropped 3 psi. Have been meaning to pull my injectors and have them cleaned & tested. Depending on cost I may just replace them with new.

Could be the HP pump but is it worth changing or going straight to the FCC setup ? Strange that it did not have any signs of vapour lock for numerous years until surfacing in the last few. Has anything else changed or is it just Global Warming

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-26-2016 at 1:16pm
Tim I just use a spade connector on the one end and an alligator clip on the other with no fuse. That picture was compliments of Lewy

Lewy I thought it may have been the regulator not holding pressure so for 20 bucks I swapped it out
I'm 100% sure it's HPP going south you can hear it cavitating until it catches prime. For some reason when the pressure drops off after sitting the HPP is getting an air lock or something, it makes two different distinct sounds as it goes from cavitating to primed. When I replace it with either system I'm going take the old pump to do some tests and dissect the pump to try to figure what was happening.
I'm going to weigh the options between converting over to FCC and staying original. The original pump lasted 18 years so if I go that route it will last longer than I will own this boat. Guess it all depends on the price of the replacement pump verses the $750 to convert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-26-2016 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by gun-driver gun-driver wrote:

I just use a spade connector on the one end and an alligator clip on the other with no fuse.


Thanks for the clarification. I put my HHP pump back on last night after giving up hope of tracking a new one down prior to leaving for vacation. I knew the chances were low to begin with but I thought it was worth trying.

I am going to run the boat tonight to make sure the it runs and to ensure I didn't screw something else up in the process of messing around with the HHP. I hope to get the HHP to act up after running for awhile. I want to try and purge the air out like you mentioned so that I know how to do that. I have the pressure gauge and alligator clip to jump the pumps and I will have an empty beer can by that time as well!   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MrMcD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-26-2016 at 3:08pm
The high pressure pump is pulled from an automotive type In Tank system and has very little ability to prime because it is designed to sit in fuel all the time.
The Low Pressure pump is what supplies fuel to the HPP and if the Low Pressure pump is not able to do that the HPP will starve for fuel. Since they are designed to run in fuel all the time running one dry can ruin the pump in less than 20 seconds. They use fuel lubricated motors in them.   If the high pressure pump goes out it will whine and groan before locking up. Sometimes you can bang on them to get them to spin enough to get you home but they are done at that point. Most have a very small filter at the inlet that could be a source of starvation if dirt got past the low pressure pump or the supply hose is going bad. If the High Pressure pump can be opened up the electric pump inside will be a standard pump and replaceable without changing the whole unit out.
If you are in a hurry or not comfortable splicing in the wires on the new pump buy a complete unit but it will cost triple the amount normally.
The low pressure pump is more robust and is the very same pump type used in Motor Homes because it has the ability to pull and push fuel. If these sound smooth on start up or first turn of the key they are usually good, Any strange noise or growl would indicate they are going out. Most failures on these are because the boat sat so long the fuel in this pump dries out and the residue locks the vanes inside. Most times you can remove these and work with them off the boat and get them to flow again. Submerge it in Diesel Fuel, let is sit an hour or so then apply electricity to the pump they usually flush out the junk and work like new, you can reverse the polarity, ground and hot wire to reverse the motor and pump the junk out both sides, inlet and pressure side..   On my 95 the low pressure pump is a standard electric Carter Marine Pump available from most parts stores or Amazon/Summit stores. example:
Carter: P4594 Hope this helps.
http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/100/180/180-P4594.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July-26-2016 at 3:19pm
Since the 3 years I have owned mine I have seen 3 FCC's for sale. Since fuel pumps were available for reasonable prices I didn't bother looking into converting. Thinking now I should have but I also think a more enclosed engine compartment may contribute to the trouble too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tnplicky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2016 at 4:55pm
I personally am not any closer to resolving my fuel pump issue, but here is some of my previously untold story for entertainment value.

Prior to taking my HHP off on July 24th in the optimistic hope of finding a replacement prior to leaving for vacation the following Saturday, I decided it would make accessibility easier if I took off the left side manifold riser and exhaust hose. In the process of loosening the manifold riser bolts, one of the long bolts snapped less than an 1/8" above the surface of the exhaust manifold. Unable to get a vise grip on the remaining bolt, I purchased a broken bolt extraction tool, which, after drilling the appropriate sized hole and using a little penetrating oil, I promptly broke the extraction tool off in the exhaust manifold as well, flush to the mounting surface. Now my decision making goes from bad to worse. With vacation looming, I decide maybe I can get the riser /manifold joint to seal up ok with just 3 of the 4 four bolts. I did have a new gasket after all, so what could it hurt? I put the HHP back on, put the riser back on (with 3 bolts) and tightened the exhaust hose clamps. Now I just needed to water test it to make sure it will run. Tuesday evening, I drop the boat in the water, start it up and the manifold / riser joint is gushing water (good news is I don't think I have any fuel leaks, but how could I tell with all the water spraying all over?).

So now with less than 4 days to vacation, I have a HHP acting up and an exhaust manifold with a broken bolt in it and water spraying all over from the manifold / riser joint. After returning home and following a quick family meeting on vacation salvage options, I decide to take the exhaust manifold off and order a new one (next day delivery -not cheap, but less expensive then renting a boat). Fortunately the 8 exhaust manifold bolts came out cleanly - I have had rusted internal hex's strip out before. Thursday, the new manifold arrives, I prep everything, get it all put back together and water test in the driveway with the bucket & hose Thur. night at 9:30 PM. Plenty of time to spare before our 5 AM departure Sat morning!

We were able to manage through the fuel pump issue on our vacation at least enough to get some boating and skiing in (but not without worrying about it all the time).

To add insult to injury, the impeller on the bilge pump came off the knurled shaft at some point (a little epoxy fixed that) and the tailgate hinge on my truck broke when packing up for the return trip home. But other than that we had a great time! All that trouble makes the beer taste better.   

Now back to HHP conversion options.......there is a lot of continued discussion going on here to follow: 1995 GT-40Fuel Pump/FCC conversion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gun-driver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2016 at 5:26pm
OMG!!!! That's just too funny, glad you took it all in stride and had fun.
"All that trouble makes the beer taste better" Love it, I will remember this quote for sure
Take your old manifold to a machine shop and have them drill and tap it for you then you can either keep as a spare or sell to recoupe some of the cost. Next day air OUCH !!!!
Lather up those new bolts with some anti-seize. I take mine out every other year or so and re-apply just to make sure they will come out when needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gary S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August-08-2016 at 7:11pm
Ouch! Well at least now you can laugh,bet it wasn't as funny at the time. I would like to take mine off for some anti seize and some new stainless steel bolts but I'm just not in the mood for that project
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