No start condition

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In a no start condition with a couple different symptoms.   Need suggestions on how to diagnose.

Next time I went to use the boat after the multiple successful carb rebuild tests, it fired up right up, ran a little rough, but died about a minute later when I returned the throttle to idle and then would crank strong, but not fire.   Verified that there was gas in the tank.   With the carb cover off I could see the accelerator pump was pushing more of a mist than a squirt.  Assuming it should be a squirt and guessing maybe also had fuel pump/line issue, poured a little gas in the carb.   It fired/mis-fired sputtered, but would not start (throttle open or closed).   So believe there is spark.    Tried quite a few times.

Backing up a bit, when I was doing the carb rebuild tests a couple days prior with the engine cover off, the cranking sounded a little more metallic than I remembered in the past, but there was no metallic sound after it started.    To me it sounded like it was from the engine front lower (area of the water pump, fuel pump, timing chain).   Double checked oil.  The sound was somewhat slight, so wondered if just louder than I remembered with the cover up.  

Now back to the no start.  Wondering if there was a timing chain issue based on the sound and mis-fire, I did pull the dizzy cover and verify that there was rotation when the starter turns.   The metallic sound got worse as I tried to start it with the gas poured in the carb, starter sound like it took a hit,  so stopped cranking and am trying to figure out how to proceed. . .  

….Panic sets in that the ski season is in jeopardy….  

Can a failing/failed mechanical fuel pump make metallic/clanking sounds (wishful thinking, since it would explain both the lack of fuel and the sound)?  

Saw some videos on checking for timing chain slop, by rotating the engine by hand to TDC and then backing off.   Is that useful or could it tell me if it was so loose it “skipped”?

Should I pull the starter to make sure there is not some damage on the gears now…in case I am not isolating the sound well enough?

Need suggestions on what to check and in what order.

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davidaha Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: May-13-2020 Location: Kansas Status: Offline Points: 48	Post Options Post Reply Quote davidaha Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: No start condition Posted: May-02-2022 at 9:21am
	In a no start condition with a couple different symptoms. Need suggestions on how to diagnose. Next time I went to use the boat after the multiple successful carb rebuild tests, it fired up right up, ran a little rough, but died about a minute later when I returned the throttle to idle and then would crank strong, but not fire. Verified that there was gas in the tank. With the carb cover off I could see the accelerator pump was pushing more of a mist than a squirt. Assuming it should be a squirt and guessing maybe also had fuel pump/line issue, poured a little gas in the carb. It fired/mis-fired sputtered, but would not start (throttle open or closed). So believe there is spark. Tried quite a few times. Backing up a bit, when I was doing the carb rebuild tests a couple days prior with the engine cover off, the cranking sounded a little more metallic than I remembered in the past, but there was no metallic sound after it started. To me it sounded like it was from the engine front lower (area of the water pump, fuel pump, timing chain). Double checked oil. The sound was somewhat slight, so wondered if just louder than I remembered with the cover up. Now back to the no start. Wondering if there was a timing chain issue based on the sound and mis-fire, I did pull the dizzy cover and verify that there was rotation when the starter turns. The metallic sound got worse as I tried to start it with the gas poured in the carb, starter sound like it took a hit, so stopped cranking and am trying to figure out how to proceed. . . ….Panic sets in that the ski season is in jeopardy…. Can a failing/failed mechanical fuel pump make metallic/clanking sounds (wishful thinking, since it would explain both the lack of fuel and the sound)? Saw some videos on checking for timing chain slop, by rotating the engine by hand to TDC and then backing off. Is that useful or could it tell me if it was so loose it “skipped”? Should I pull the starter to make sure there is not some damage on the gears now…in case I am not isolating the sound well enough? Need suggestions on what to check and in what order.
	92 Ski Nautique

KENO Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112	Post Options Post Reply Quote KENO Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-02-2022 at 1:07pm
	Without being there to hear things, I'd probably Pull the coil wire Remove all the spark plugs, labeling things so you get the firing order right when reinstalling Remove both belts from the engine Remove the fuel line and direct the discharge to a container with a hose Turn the key and see what you have for flow out the fuel line to give you an idea if the pump is pumping, and you can maybe tell better where the noise is coming from since you won't have any noise from the engine firing And while you're at it, you can wiggle/ rotate the pulleys on the raw water pump, the circulating pump and the alternator to see if you have any slop from a bad bearing that would be making noise. That should give a rough quick check of the fuel pump and hopefully make finding the metallic noise easier

davidaha Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: May-13-2020 Location: Kansas Status: Offline Points: 48	Post Options Post Reply Quote davidaha Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-03-2022 at 10:28pm
	Great steps. Seems obvious once you have done them...but would not have been that thorough on my own...so thank you. Fuel pump was strong No looseness on the pulleys No slop in the timing chain The metallic sound was from the starter. It is toast. Starter shaft was loose. The no start may have been that the DUI battery crimp was loose. It came apart when I went to disconnect. So the next question. The starter did some flywheel 'polishing' and created shavings...but I do not see any missing or damaged teeth. Is it recommended to: A. Vacuum up visible shavings, install new starter and monitor B. A flywheel replacement is needed or ______ will happen
	92 Ski Nautique

KENO Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Grand Poobah Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11112	Post Options Post Reply Quote KENO Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-04-2022 at 7:14am
	Since the boat is a 92, the easy assumption is that you have a normal rotation engine, but it would be good to hear that from you With all the plugs still out, I'd rotate the engine by hand (use a 15/16 socket on the bolt holding the harmonic balancer onto the crankshaft) Do a full 360 degrees stopping frequently along the way so you can see all of the teeth on the ring gear. Are those shavings magnetic from the ring gear, starter gear ,,,,,,,,,or maybe non magnetic like from the nose of the starter? It's a lot of metal from somewhere If they all look decent, I'd figure a new starter and you'll know pretty quickly if things are good or if you have a bigger problem with the ring gear. You could rebuild or get rebuilt your "toast", but being a 92 it probably has the big old style Ford starter and replacing it with an Arco PMGR marine starter is a good choice The link below to a recent thread has some info If you have a normal rotation engine, then an Arco 70200 is what you'd want (or an equivalent cross referenced from another company) Just to avoid confusion the part number for the reverse rotation starter won't get mentioned here. Like the link says, a small easy wiring change is needed A little shopping will show a wide range of pricing for the same Arco starter from different places link

davidaha Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Groupie Joined: May-13-2020 Location: Kansas Status: Offline Points: 48	Post Options Post Reply Quote davidaha Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: May-04-2022 at 10:38am
	Engine model starts with PLD so "normal"/left hand rotation from back. Visually confirmed that in a video I took while testing. Ordered the arco and will check the full flywheel. The existing starter pn cross referenced to a cheap automotive starter .....so between the previously leaking carb and the automotive starter....feeling lucky to be alive.
	92 Ski Nautique

No start condition

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