Misfire thoughts? 351 in the Shepherd project |
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: June-01-2022 at 9:41am |
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I've got the engine that the legendary Art Cozier sent me last summer, for which I can't thank him enough. He was awesome and did so much more than was asked of him, including throwing in a muffler for me, "because it was lying around" - I need more friends with this kind of stuff lying around! More on that project if you want background. I got the engine running but it's got a mysterious misfire, I am leaning toward the electronic ignition module in the distributor. I know Art had the engine running last summer before he sent it, so I can't see why it wouldn't be something simple now. I verified the firing order as specified - 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3. For a brief moment I thought, hmm, what if it's 180 out? So I swapped the wires around putting #1 on the opposite side with everything in the same order, and it ran about the same - seemingly on 4 cylinders, but different ones. I checked for spark with a light tester and all the wires produced a spark light. But maybe half of them are weak, something with the electronic module? I welcome your thoughts before I order this. Plugs ![]() and more plugs ![]() Here's the EI module ![]() More pics = more better. ![]() ![]() |
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21197 |
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You definitely have a firing order problem if it ran with 2 very different plug wire arrangements. You never said whether it’s a RH or LH engine, but that would be a good start. Then find TDC on the compression stroke, and put plug #1 where the rotor points. Follow the FO around counterclockwise. Make sure you have the cylinder numbers correct for a Ford (Windsor).
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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It's RH for sure, spinning clockwise from the flywheel end. I did find TDC on the compression stroke for #1 and confirmed that it's lined up with 1 on the cap. It was suggested to me elsewhere that it could in fact be a 302 cam for some reason. This engine's history is not entirely known (at least to me), Art had it sitting around in storage for a number of years. Related to that suggestion was a recommended firing order of 18736245. This seems unlikely but yet, here we are.
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21197 |
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Pics of the engine tag and/or engine might help us id 351 vs 302. Otherwise pick up where you left off on my step by step above. Most marine 302’s from the early-mid 70’s onwards used the 351 firing order, though using the wrong version will result in the symptoms you’re seeing.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11181 |
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If you want my thoughts..............I think you'll be pretty upset if you order that Mallory 609 module because you'll figure out that it doesn't fit your Prestolite screwdown cap distributor and then you'll be paying return shipping, wondering what fits your distributor. and then having to order that and have a longer wait.
Pretty much the only replacements these days are from Pertronix. Look at a Pertronix 91581LS (higher priced, fancier electronics) 140 ish bucks or a Pertronix 1581LS (cheaper, easier to burn out if the key is accidentally left in Run with the engine off) 100 ish bucks. They're the latest version of their modules for Prestolites and they fit your distributor As far as your wiring swaps and how many cylinders it ran on etc, I guess only you know what you did, but there must have been a little black magic and voodoo involved
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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I did verify the firing order as 18456273, as written on the engine which is normal for a RH 351 unless I'm mistaken. Starting at #1 and going CCW around the distributor cap. One problem I have is that I can't turn the engine by hand the correct way. I put a big socket on the bolt inside the main pulley but if I turn it CCW it loosens the bolt. I turned it CW so when I felt compression with my thumb over the #1 plug hole I figured that would be the WRONG TDC (exhaust stroke) so I turned it to the next TDC and that is where Art had plug #1 lined up with the rotor on the cap from the beginning. I hope I'm explaining that adequately. The engine does not have a tag, here are some pics though. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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For sure this is why I'm here. If it's a faulty module I am willing to throw a part at it, so long as it's the right one! I couldn't tell from what I have and what I could find online, which one is the right one. So thank you!
What I can tell you is that Art ran the engine last summer before sending it to me. I changed nothing and it's not running right, so something is amiss. It's unlikely to be a firing order issue since I changed nothing, but yet the plugs look like something's up. Before I changed anything, I took those pics of the spark plugs so we could all see that before anything changed. It's currently exactly like it was originally and not running right. When I swapped the wires last night, I put #1 exactly opposite where it is now, and then put them in the same order, CCW, after #1. It started up and ran about the same as it does now. I was meticulous with my process because I know changing things around tends to muddy the waters, so I wanted to be very careful, and mostly gather data rather than complicate things.
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11181 |
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The harmonic balancer bolt should be torqued to 70 to 90 ft lbs and it shouldn't take that much force to rotate the engine even with the plugs in, so torque the bolt and then with the plugs out, you can rotate the engine to TDC #1 compression stroke a lot easier without the bolt loosening..........just to be sure you have it right.
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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Thanks, good to know. I will do that in any case, but I wanted to update this. It runs perfectly with a firing order of 18736245. I got a bit of unexpected free time so I ran over and tried it, and it fired up and purred immediately. I'll post a video shortly. Thank you all for your quick and (as always) thorough help. This engine wouldn't be in this boat right now, the boat wouldn't be in the water, if it wasn't for the good people on this site, not the least of which is Art who dug up the engine in the first place. Thank you again. I'll update my other thread as the project comes together finally.
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3776 |
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Both the 302 and 351W fire orders are the same in Rev Rotation engines on cylinders 1,8 and 2. Those should burn clean regardless of what cam you have and they are fowled so I think you follow the advice above and verify #1 on compression stroke and then wire it in order Counter Clockwise on the cap from #1 and see what happens with the 351W fire order of 18456273.
#1 plug on your engine is the front cylinder in the most forward bank. Look down on the front of the engine, one head is about 1" forward of the other. This forward bank is always where #1 is located. As you turn the engine over to find the compression stroke place your thumb over the #1 plug hole, you will feel air start pushing out when it hits the compression stroke, now look at the balancer and turn a little more till the timing mark lines up at TDC. Verify the position of your rotor in the dist cap and you now have #1 location verified and can wire it from that point, counter clockwise around the cap. How was the engine stored from when it last ran? If the carb was open to air you may have taken moisture inside the engine from the air. That can cause rust inside and some things like valves can stick with rust in there. How Old is the fuel you are trying to burn? If it is over 1 year old you should swap for fresh gas. 6 mos old gas is pushing it today.
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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Thank you for this. I did get the #1 TDC correct as it turns out, but the correct firing order is 18736245 for this engine. That's how it's wired now and it runs perfectly. I am running the engine on fuel from an outboard tank that's very fresh, the old tank is clean and empty but not installed yet. I did have a rag in the carb over the winter, where it was stored, so I think it's all good. Check out the video(s) from my other post to see how well it runs now! Thank you again.
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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TRBenj ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: June-29-2005 Location: NWCT Status: Offline Points: 21197 |
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LH 351 = 13726548
RH 351 = 18456273 (Early) 302: LH = 15426378 RH = 18736245 If the (early) RH 302 FO works for you, either the cam has been swapped for a 302 unit, or you have your cylinder numbers wrong. Having the opposite FO previously would indeed have had it running on 4… |
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MrMcD ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() ![]() Joined: January-28-2014 Location: Folsom, CA Status: Offline Points: 3776 |
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Progress, Nice, great looking boat. There is no issue having the 302 cam other than you need to write that down so the next guy can wire it without issue. The engine sounds very healthy.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11181 |
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Here's what you had for plugs that were firing your first time around (RR 351 firing order used with your RR early 302 cam
302 1 8 7 3 6 2 4 5 351 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3 1 8 6 2 fired when they were supposed to Second time around with the RR 351 firing order arranged 180 out (#1 plug wire in #6 terminal going Counter clockwise from there) 302 1 8 7 3 6 2 4 5 351 6 2 7 3 1 8 4 5 7 3 4 5 fired when they were supposed to Then you got brave and tried the RR early 302 firing order and all 8 fired when they were supposed to. Good observations on your part about 4 different cylinders firing with each order you tried and good listening to whoever suggested that it might have a RR 302 cam even though it seemed improbable to you. I guess that solves the voodoo and black magic ![]() And.............you know what to buy if the module ever fails on you. I think it's getting near cruisin' time for your Father in Law |
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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Tim, Mark, Ken - thank you again, and Ken your analysis is dead on. For 8 years I worked at the marina where this boat is kept and while I have never been to any tech school, I listened to the techs all the time and learned a lot from them. One of the most important lessons I learned was to gather a lot of information before throwing parts at something. I went to the boat a couple nights ago with the intention of gathering enough information to talk to you folks, knowing what you'd be asking (e.g. "did you find TDC on #1"). I took a notepad and took careful notes about what was happening and when. I knew whatever was wrong had to be relatively simple. Art found strong compression on all cylinders and I knew that. So it narrowed my diagnostics down to ignition. I now vaguely recall some conversations with Art last year wherein he might have referenced a 302, but in the time that has passed, I can't remember where we ended up on that, other than him shipping a running engine to me that looked a lot like every 351 I've seen in these boats over the years, wired for a 351 order for some reason. A 302 is just as good for this purpose and so long as it runs well, we're thrilled. For sure I will document the proper firing order on this, but as far as the "next guy" well, that's likely to be me in all honesty. This boat will almost certainly become mine eventually. I haven't really told the story here but it's the reason I met my wife. Indeed, we are close to cruising time. If I can have it done by early July (which is actually realistic, finally) he can take it to church which is what he was doing one day when he brought his daughter along... who is now my wife. So I hope that comes together for him.
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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KENO ![]() Grand Poobah ![]() Joined: June-06-2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 11181 |
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If you're unsure if it's a 351 or 302......................it's a 351 guaranteed 110%
![]() People have all kinds of ways of distinguishing one from the other, but the Ford part number E6TE-9425 -CB on the intake manifold tells it all leaving no doubt at all that it's a 351. I guess the biggest mystery would be why it showed up with the handwritten firing order and the wires arranged per the handwritten order but right now who cares.............it runs like it should. ![]() |
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stepper459 ![]() Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June-17-2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 349 |
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Indeed, this is all that matters in the end. I'm a happy camper and my father-in-law will be too. The engine was a reasonable price in a world where they just aren't that easy to come by, and it is going to be an excellent replacement for the old one, scrapping originality anyway (sorry Pete).
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All boats are sinking, it's just a matter of how quickly.
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