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Engine cutting out....

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ultrarunner View Drop Down
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    Posted: November-27-2006 at 9:32pm
Ok, on a couple of occasions when running at WOT after about 1 minute at this setting the engine would start, what I think, backfiring and loosing power. At WOT I'm showing about 4k on the tach, which I know is relative.

As you know, I converted the distributor with the electronic box, replace the wires and plugs, etc...other than that, the 351 is completely stock.

If I back off slightly on the throttle, the problem disappears. This problem only exhibits itself at WOT.

I am thinking an ignition issue. Any thoughts on troubleshooting? I have a few months to think this over.

thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 9:11am
Ultra, sounds like a fuel issue to me,you should be turning more than 4 grand at WOT,imho a lean condition rears its head at or near WOT,a lean condition will sometimes make the engine SNEEZE,or spit back thru the carb,and not miss or stutter like an ignition problem.A spark plug reading will tell the true story of a lean ,fuel delivery,problem.Possible causes,fuel pump,restriction or blockage of the vent tube,debris in carb...........boat dr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 10:45am
Yup, fuel delivery. Goes flat, lean pop, fix before fragging a piston.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 10:50am
I've never understood the physics behind backfiring through the intake due to a lean condition. Could someone explain how this happens? This is not me being sarcastic- I actually am curious as to why this occurs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M3Fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 10:55am
Ok, I found the answer myself. Interesting.

From Wikipedia-

Improperly adjusted carburetors that create a lean condition during acceleration can cause the air fuel mixture to burn so slowly, that combustion is still taking place during the exhaust stroke, and even when the intake valve opens. The flame front can then travel up the intake and cause a backfire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 10:56am
Me too M3Fan.

Been messing about with engines since I was a wee boy and I know it's a symptom of weak mixture, but not why it makes the engine spit back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tomski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 10:59am
Beat me to it, but I thought a weak mixture would burn faster being more volatile due higher ratio of oxygen in the charge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 4:01pm
Tom, 17:1 thru 22:1 is the ratio that will promote combustion, above or below no bang.a leaner mixture produces more BTU's right to the point of "fix before fragging a piston."Heat = Horsepower
leaner is harder to ignite
boat dr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Tomski Tomski wrote:

Beat me to it, but I thought a weak mixture would burn faster being more volatile due higher ratio of oxygen in the charge.


   Boat dr. has it right,but I'll expand on it cause I'm bored!Lean is harder to ignite to a piont.The fuel molecules are too far apart for the flame front to spread.If you lean it out too much,you'll actually have more unburnt fuel leaving the exhaust than if it were slightly rich.

The popping thru the intake can be caused by being lean(most common),and some timing issues will cause it.Also improper intake\exhaust tuning causes reversion(see previous post about exhaust valve being open while intake charge coming in-cam overlap).

Lean is mean.Too lean and MR.squeaky comes to visit-not good.

Side note-overly rich conditions at the wrong time,can make this a lot worse,IE accelerator pump timing-if the accelerator pump sprays as this phenomenon occurs,it adds fuel to the (mis)fire,making it worse.

   Happy Tuning

    Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 8:36pm
To offer a suggestion Ultarunner,if it goes flat after running wide open for over a minute,my guess would be a float bowl drying out,check the float level and insure correct fuel pressure.

I believe JEFF KOSTIS was experiencing this exact same thing in his M17 with the Excalibur he recently installed.Maybe shooting him an E-mail may help.

     Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boat dr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-28-2006 at 10:00pm
05 210, do you remember SATURDAY NITE LIVE....The Mr. Bill Show, this was the mental picture that flashed thru my old brain,Mr. Squeaky,new term for the boat dr. to use on clients that will not properly store a boat motor,2 strokes love lean. thanx that was a good hardy har har...........boat dr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-29-2006 at 8:05am
Originally posted by boat dr boat dr wrote:

2 strokes love lean.
.

   A visit from Mr Squeaky,usually preceeded by the customer saying...Jeez,it was running better than it ever has,just before this happened.

   I remember the Mr.Bill show,it's been a long time.

   Mike
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ultrarunner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2006 at 10:59am
Thanks folks for the suggestions. I'll have the mixture and fuel pressure check before we get back on the water in April.

thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GottaSki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2006 at 11:15am
I'm thinkin its a clogged tank screen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultrarunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2006 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

I'm thinkin its a clogged tank screen


Quite possible, as the boat sat for a number of years with out running, except for winterizing and summerizing....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quinner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November-30-2006 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by GottaSki GottaSki wrote:

I'm thinkin its a clogged tank screen


Had a similar problem many years ago on my 77' w/351, after the dealer replaced carb, fuel pump, filters, etc. I started digging around and found it was the check valve, or whatever it is called, just past or at the elbow on top of the fuel tank. It was almost completely closed with debris, cleaned it out and the boat never had a problem again.

Good luck

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-01-2006 at 12:22am
Q, anti-siphon valve. I hate those.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 87BFN owner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-04-2006 at 8:59pm
I am with 05 210 I think you have a bowl issue, if it will run wide open for a minute then backfire, you sucking all the gas out and it's not being replaced as fast as your using.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slacker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-05-2006 at 5:00pm
ultrarunner, I had the same problem this past spring on my 89 nautique. It almost drove me crazy looking for what the problem. I adjusted the float, took apart the carb, changed the fuel filter, checked the fuel pump pressure, checked the fresh air hoses for kinks, birds nests or other blockage.

I went to see Woody at Southeast Correct Craft and described the problem, without hesitation he said "your anti-siphon valve is clogged". I took the valve off and it was exactly as he decribed, the screen was clogged on the fuel tank side just enough that the fuel flow would not keep up with demand at wide open throttle for more than one minute.

The anti-siphon valve is on top of the gas tank and is between the nintey degree connection from the tank and the fuel hose to the fuel pump.

I would check that and clean it before doing anything elae.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRDon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-29-2006 at 8:33pm
I had the same symptoms on my 85 and I backed the timeing off 2* and it has been fixed ever since. It was not at WOT all the time but as a matter of load. I had some detonation on the #1 cylinder (reading the plugs) but all is well now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SkiBum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December-29-2006 at 9:54pm
In the process of disa$$embling my 87 SN I removed all of the fuel and the fuel cell. The last gallon of fuel came out brown from all the whatever lurks in the bottom of a fuel cell for 20 years. Could definately understand why clogging someplace would create an issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 05 210 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January-01-2007 at 12:32am
Originally posted by SkiBum SkiBum wrote:

The last gallon of fuel came out brown from all the whatever lurks in the bottom of a fuel cell for 20 years.


     WATER

        Mike
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