Problem with Comp Cams
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1001
Printed Date: November-22-2024 at 9:42am
Topic: Problem with Comp Cams
Posted By: AWhite70
Subject: Problem with Comp Cams
Date Posted: November-17-2004 at 9:21pm
I just wanted to make everyone aware of the problems I've had with Comp Cams on the cam for the engine I'm rebuilding in my '79 Nautique.
I ordered a custom grind reverse rotation camshaft this spring and rebuilt the engine. Everything seemed good until I had to tear the engine down for reasons other than the cam. Upon teardown inspection of the cam and measuring of the lobes I noticed that the intake and exhaust lobe lifts were backwards from my desired specs on the cam card. I called Comp Cams and they told me this was impossible, but to send the cam back and inspect it.
When Comp inspected the cam they confirmed that the lobes were backwards and promptly ground me a new cam and shipped it out within a week. When I received it I measured it only to find that it had been ground exactly the same as the first cam.
I called Comp again and have been going back and forth with them for the past 2 months. They supposedly know what got messed up and are going to grind me a new cam to the correct specs and ship it to me. Meanwhile I'm waiting.
I just wanted to warn anyone that's rebuilding an engine with a Comp Cam to make sure they measure the lobes to ensure they actually got what they wanted.
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November-17-2004 at 11:03pm
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I just got off the phone with a comp cam rep getting recommendations for a cam for my 1968 289 Ford engine. I was told Comp Cams does not offer a reverse rotation cam for a 289 but that they do offer a reverse rotation cam for a 351 Windsor and all I have to do is change my firing order to use the Windsor cam. Does this sound right or make sense?
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Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 12:21am
I'm not sure about a 289 but I know that's the case for a 302. In the automotive world there are a lot of 302 running 351 firing order's and vice versa. I'm not sure exactly why they are different but they are interchangeable.
Since on a 4 stroke engine there are always 2 pistons in the same physical position but on different strokes (i.e. compression & exhaust) you can have multiple firing order's that work fine.
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Posted By: 882001
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 3:15am
did it run with the first cam? i just got a cam from them a couple of months ago. seems to run great.
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kemah texas
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=163&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990 - 1988
skinautique "2001"
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 9:33am
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A 302 is only an overbored 289, and the same firing order, so a 289 can be converted to the 351 firing order like the 302.
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Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 12:20pm
The engine ran great with the bad cam grind. I degreed the cam when I installed it so the #1 intake was in the correct spot and the durations were close enough that everything ran ok. The intake and exhaust lobe lifts were different but not different enough to detect a problem in engine running. The one problem I did have is pushrod wear. I attribute this to the fact that the opening and closing ramps were backwards (i.e. I was opening the valve by going up the closing ramp and closing the valve and closing the valve going down the opening ramp) I suspect that this caused some increased loading on the valvetrain and caused the pushrods to wear.
In short, there was no detection of the cam being wrong in running the engine. I would have never known if I didn't measure the cam
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Posted By: 882001
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 12:35pm
so should i call comp cams? how long have they been screwed up? whats gonna happen if i leave it.i wasnt looking to disassemble the motor again, but if i need to i will.
need to change your name to eagle eye. i could study that cam for a month and not figure that out.
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kemah texas
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=163&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990 - 1988
skinautique "2001"
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Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 1:49pm
Damn Correct Craft and their reverse rotation setup, that's one of my biggest dilemmas,, cam selection for RH motors. You buy a reverse rotation cam from one of the marine engine parts people and no cam specs come with it.
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 8:52pm
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So, do any other cam grinders make a reverse rotation cam?
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 9:36pm
Crane,
I have two of them
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 9:40pm
Crane,
I have two of them, firing order 18456273
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Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: November-18-2004 at 9:54pm
For reference purpose this web site has a OEM RH cam spacs http://engineparts.com/motorhead/techstuff/2003marine/Camshafts_Lifters_TimingComponents.pdf
I'm not sure if Lazer cams did but I Crane probably does.
What was the specs or part number for the one you got SS201?
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: Stan C
Date Posted: November-19-2004 at 2:56am
If you have an existing rh rotation camshaft, isky cams in calif will regrind it with any new cam profile you like for $78.00
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Stan C
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-19-2004 at 8:58am
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Crane is the largest suppler of cams, they not only grind but manufacture the blanks. They supply most of the automotive industry. Call this person, Roy Griffin 386 527 8385 leave a message he will get back to you. Just tell him Bill B told you to call, he is special event person for Crane. He will take care of your needs.
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: November-20-2004 at 5:44pm
Posted By: 882001
Date Posted: November-21-2004 at 5:08am
what do you think i outta do? is there a way to tell?
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kemah texas
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=163&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990 - 1988
skinautique "2001"
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-21-2004 at 8:30am
Look at your cam card and use the firing order is was ground for. Also it tells you what it is should say left hand rotation. long as the dist goes in, just use the firing order it was ground for on the card.
The different firing orders were used to take the load off the front journal of the crank.
CC engine were 18456273
Some Ford engines had three different firing orders.
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Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: November-21-2004 at 12:18pm
882001-The easiest way to tell if your cam is right would be to pull one of the valve covers, remove a couple rocker arms and check pushrod lift with a dial indicator. This will tell you if you have the correct lift on the correct lobes. There is no way to tell if the ramps are right without some pretty sophisticated equipment and a detailed drawing of what they're supposed to be.
Other than that if the engine runs ok and you're happy with the performance I wouldn't worry about it. You're not going to damage anything that you wouldn't replace in a cam swap anyway. Like I said I never would have known mine was ground incorrectly until I took my engine apart for other reasons.
As far as other suppliers for RH marine cams I couldn't find anyone other than Comp that would grind a high performance RH cam. Crane used to but no longer does as I understand. Federal Mogul and Dana (Clevite) sell cams ground to OEM specs. The custom grind cam from Comp was still have the price of what Ski DIM wanted for an OEM replacement PCM cam.
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-21-2004 at 4:30pm
First,
If it was the wrong rotation and the transmission pump wasn't changed the boat wouldn't move.The boat with the wrong prop would go backwards instead of forward. Water pump if not flipped wouldn't work ,etc.
You need yor cam card and dial indicator, top dead center plug,degree wheel, etc and the knowledge to do so.
Cam card will tell you everything you want to know about your cam, if it's a left or right rotation, and all other pertent information..
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Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: November-23-2004 at 1:46pm
This is the response I got back from Lazrecams after requesting info on reverse rotation cam grinding. The cam I chose to reference was a Ford 351 1962-1992 Hyd grind of 215 degrees @50 intake/exhaust and .486 lift both sides, a bit more than stock marine grind. I've never used them so don't come to me if the lobes are bass-ackwards.
"Yes, indeed Cap'n! We certainly can. $188.11 for most hydraulic and lifter grinds. And it's typically only 2-4 working days from order to ready to ship."
Cam Wizard
captan1@pacbell.net writes:
Can you grind me a cam like ( 2650137 ) a or b? for a reverse rotation ford 351 1977 marine engine?
Steve
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-23-2004 at 7:34pm
I would choose a dual pattern cam rather than a single pattern cam. Single are used in conditions that require wide open all the time ,dual pattern gives more low end torque, and on off throttle responses.
When used on a track and wide open throttle is constant they are great. In my opinion
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Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: November-23-2004 at 7:50pm
I'm no cam wizard but I have researched the different profiles and why they are. One comment I remember is this guy wrote a tech article about dual pattern cams, he wasn't against them he just said there is a purpose and a place for them. He said sprint cars sometimes used a dual pattern cam to soften the "getting back in it" and consequently lowering the compression for rookie drivers because on dirt the rookie would stab the throttle half way through the turn and bust loose the tires and usually spin out and the dual pattern cam would help prevent this. He also said that now days the exhaust systems in cars are better and the need for longer exhaust duration wasn't so beneficial, boat exhaust systems at 3" and short distance have to be fairly free flowing. I've had dual pattern cams and just wanted to try a single, might note even notice the difference.
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-24-2004 at 8:22am
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That is a good analysis and If it doesn't work you can alway's mix the rocker ratios. I would agree with the exhaust however older marine systems are not free flowing, unless you have changed exhaust. Expensive way of going back. I guess seeing is believing, have fun.
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Posted By: David F
Date Posted: November-29-2004 at 12:58pm
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Has anyone ever thought about coverting a RH engine to a gear driven camshaft. This will allow the use of conventional LH rotating cams, distributor and oil pump. The 350 Chevy in my old 64 Chris Craft was set up this way and made it very easy to get the cam I wanted. I actually used a cam spec set up for RV's to get the most low end torque possible. Just a thought.
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Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: November-29-2004 at 1:38pm
I thought of that too, I don't think it would fit. The cam gear would have to be so big to eliminate the idler gear like the old Chevy six had that it won't fit in the Ford timing cover. You have to eliminate the idler gear to reverse the rotation of the cam, the gear drives used on car engines have an idler gear that keeps the cam rotating in the same direction as if using a chain.
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: David F
Date Posted: November-29-2004 at 1:53pm
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The 350 that I rebuilt had the camshaft gear driven directly by the crankshaft gear. This setup reversed the rotation of the camshaft, distributor and oil pump relative to the the crankshaft. Allthough I have rebuilt several 351 Windsor's, I never really studied the cam chain cover to see if there was enough room for a gear drive setup. However, you are probably right.
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: November-29-2004 at 2:45pm
Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: December-03-2004 at 1:20pm
An update on my Comp Cams story:
Yesterday I received my cam (the 3rd one). I measured it and it matches the spec. card and is the specs I wanted. Comp said they had their "Master Grinder" (the guy who does cams for Nascar) do my cam and that they know what mistakes they were making and assured me it won't happen again.
Aside from this taking a little too long I have been happy with Comp's service. Along with the cam they sent me a new set of lifters and pushrods.
Hopefully I'll get the engine put together in a couple weeks and maybe get it in the boat so I can clear up some garage space.
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Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: December-04-2004 at 2:11pm
For the rest of us that might be interested in swapping cams,, what are the spec's of your new cam and did Comp Cams give you a part number for the new cam?
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: AWhite70
Date Posted: December-06-2004 at 12:05pm
If you do a search on this forum for Comp Cams you'll be able to find a couple old threads with my cam info, but here it is:
Cam Blank: 35-000-5RR
Grind # FW 5442/5444 H112 +2
Duration: 218/226 @ .050" (I/E)
Lift: .308"/.320" (I/E) (0.493"/0.512" w/ 1.6 rocker)
Lobe Separation: 112
The cam performed great with the lobes reversed. Hopefully it will be as good or better with the cam ground correctly.
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Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: December-19-2004 at 10:25am
Hey Jim in Houston. Did your old 289 engine have the old solid lifter cam?
Do you know the spec's?
I still have the original solid lifter cam and I reduced the intake from 020 to 018 lash and the reduced lift added a lot of pull down low without reduction on the top end. I had read an article that the reduced lift causes the gas to atomize better and swirl.
I think SS201 may be right that the old BARR marine exhaust is probably so restrictive that it masks any top end differences???? I thought I'd lose a few MPH on the top end but did not.
Cam exhaust comments??
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64 Skier
66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: December-19-2004 at 8:29pm
No. I have hydraulics. This is the cam recommended to me from Comp Cams:
************
If you want to check on specs on the cam, look up a part number 31-218-2 on our website.
***************
I'm thinking it may be too much cam - I'm thinking about it.
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: December-20-2004 at 12:34am
Jim,
I'm using a very slightly less aggressive spec cam in my '70 Mustang 302 and it runs great. This cam improved power all the way across the power band, adding low end punch and additional higher-rpm power. Mine is a SpeedPro (no idea if they still make this spec or not) but it is a 206-221 degree duration, .444"-452" lift cam. I noticed on the CompCam website that they also have a part no 31-216-2, which is .447" lift, 212 dur stick. Also, for some reason on the cam they recommended, the website states that it's recommended for inboard/outboard uses.?? Keep in mind that a 289-302 needs less cam than a 351 to achieve your same goals. And I guess you told Comp that this is a reverse rot engine. I didn't see it noted on the website specs for this or other cams although obviously they make them.
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ReidP
/diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: December-20-2004 at 6:40pm
Reid,
If you don't mind,
what is your top RPM, your prop size, and what type of carb are you running? Where did you buy your SpeedPro cam? That cam you purchased appears to be still available. Did you also replace your lifters? Where did you get them?
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: December-21-2004 at 12:13am
Jim,
My top rpm with a 12x14 Federal or 12x13 OJ prop (different designs but same rpm) is 5200. That may seem high but the engine also has other mods (see diary for light blue '70 Mustang), which attribute to the higher rpm. The cam was worth approx 300 over stock. This was the original prop size (12x14), and after testing with more pitch for lowered rpm, this one still provided the best speed and definitely the best pull. My carb is a 600 Holley. I purchased the cam thru my machine shop, where I also purchased the new lifters. They were also a SpeedPro or Clevite part. The machine shop is Carolina's Auto Machine-704-377-4933 (Jeff). He knows me and reverse rotation parts. If you want to buy from him, I would be glad to pick it up and ship it to you if they couldn't. Their prices are very good on most items such as these.
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ReidP
/diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: December-21-2004 at 8:33am
The production of opposite cams are getting very scarce. The problem is not grinding but there is no one any longer casting the blanks .
Since PCM built the 123 transmison opposite rotation engines are no longer necessary in CC boats. They can change the shaft rotation in the tranny.
The issue of dual vs single pattern cams has always been a personal call. However torque is more important in tow boats unless you are turning over 5250 RPM., torque goes away while HP climbs, depending on the torque range of the cam. Bigger is not always better.
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: December-24-2004 at 8:42pm
Reid, I am going to call Carolina's Auto Machine and see if they can sell me that cam. The only other cam available will be ground for a 351 and I will have to queer up the firing order to make it work - although eveyone reports no problems in doing this I would rather leave the firing order as original if possible. (The existing chromed valve covers have a nice embossed custom plate showing the reverse rotation firing order of the 289 and if I go with a 351 cam the plate will not be correct. Believe it or not these little things are important to me.) (My new GT40P heads just came in and it's time for the cam!!!!) Merry Christmas to all, and to a good night!
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: December-25-2004 at 11:00pm
Jim,
I hope you and everyone else in the Correct Craft owners and fan family have had an incredible holiday season thus far. Our Christmas was great. However, bad news on the cam I gave you the specs for, as it relates to the firing order. It's also a 351 firing order cam unfortunately. And for that matter, almost every 302 4V marine engine after 1970 or so, shared the 351 firing order as a result of Ford universalizing (is that a word?) the parts bins. Many out there with 215-225 HP 302 Fords may have noticed that their engines have 351 heads to go along with the 351 camshaft. If you're not sure, just pop off a valve cover and you'll see the 351 stamp. This was a factory assembly for the marine based 302 4V engines. So do you have a Holman Moody engine, as I know mine have the embossed plates on the chrome valve cover but my 302's have the 351 firing order? My Interceptor 302 just had a decal on the valve cover which I've easily reproduced when I replaced the cam. I believe I have an extra set of HM valve covers with the 351 F.O. plate on them which I could pop off and send to you if you wish. Otherwise, you may be looking at a custom ground $$ cam to keep that firing order. Let me know if we can help you in any way.
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ReidP
/diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: December-27-2004 at 9:11am
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The reason for the firing order change was to take the load off of cranshaft journals. From front to rear or vise versa. The performance remains the same, but the crank longevity may be comprised, judgenment call.
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Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: December-30-2004 at 5:06am
I think H&M still grind cams. They still list in the Ford Racing Parts Magazine. As I recall the guy's name is Jimmy Tucker and he was around when Parnelli and guy's like him became famous with H&M engines. He also told me he was there when they put an H&M engine in a CC and tested it. He told me the "car" engine torque's force was the same direction as the Driver's weight and the boat planed at an angle. Back then the boats were smaller and narrow across the beam so a car engines rotation was definitely a "deal breaker".
Great guy, you should give him a call and talk about the cam grind. He helped me a lot during my re-build.
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64 Skier
66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: December-31-2004 at 1:44pm
ReidP, I ordered that cam and lifter set from Jeff at Carolina's Auto. He is going to ship it out next week. Helpful fellow - thanks for the lead. BTW, the cam is advertised by SpeedPro (if my memory serves me correct) as the original firing order for that 289 engine but you are correct, the firing order has been changed, according to Jeff, to match the 351W. Oh well. It's probably best.
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: January-02-2005 at 12:07am
Jim, Good deal. I'm sure Jeff gave you a little crap about the "those backwards engines" as he always does me. Did you ever say which 289 Ford you had, whether it was a H-M or an Interceptor?
64 Skier: Regarding Holman Moody, and since I'm in the Charlotte, NC area and have a HM engine, I naturally went to them first, hoping to get something I could call a factory upgrade cam. I've spoken to Jimmy Tucker also; what a wealth of info- and to Larry Wallace who grinds the cams. Unfortunately though, and from time to time it bites us all, he said he couldn't get the reverse rotation cam blanks/billets anymore.
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ReidP
/diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang
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Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: January-02-2005 at 9:51am
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I have a 351 Windsor RR cam ground by Crane 18456273, 216 - 228 duration, 484 512 lift.It's one I used but in good shape if anyone needs one. It's torque range is 2000 - 4500, 1.6 rocker arm ratio.
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: January-06-2005 at 12:14am
It's an Interceptor, ReidP.
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: workky
Date Posted: January-12-2005 at 7:02pm
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U still have that cam ,SS 201.How much?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January-13-2005 at 8:40am
Yes I do, I am out of town right now, E mail me at wburg69@yahoo.com I am at a computer every day.
Bill B
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