Acme 540 prop question
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10347
Printed Date: November-19-2024 at 8:26pm
Topic: Acme 540 prop question
Posted By: bmiller
Subject: Acme 540 prop question
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 1:14am
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I just installed my new acme 540 that I bought off this site from a member,and I have a question.The old prop was a Federal 12x14 which was OEM for my 1978 Mustang.I know Keith did a comparison on this prop with his 79 Mustang that he owned.My question is that I only have a 1/2 of a inch from the tip of the blade to the hull.Now I have yet to put the boat in the water to see what happens,and I will do that soon,but I feel that I may have some turbulence issues or maybe a vibration issue.Is a half inch to close to the hull or am I just thinking I'm going to have an issue.What do you all think.I know that some people have had some issues and had to have there props tweaked by Delta propeller.
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Replies:
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 2:34am
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I think you have opened up a can of worms....
1/2 in. is too close , prop burn at that point will result.Also I could not get the performance out of any Acme, Austrel, Federal nor OJ in the 13 in size. After a year of different props makes, 3&4 blades, 13,14,15 pitch I found the dream prop........OJ Legend 12x15........Boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 7:42am
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Brian, I'm one of the people that had bad results.
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7926&KW=540+and+the+tique - the Tique and the 540 I thought with the added aft rake of the Acme that the clearance to the hull would be ok but it wasn't! You'll see that Reid & Billy had the same issue. The way our boats are set up, the prop to hull clearance is already below the recommended by the prop manufacturers! You would be better off gettig a 12" OJ. I still have the 540 and will be trying it on my X55 but I feel the same vibration problem will come up. The prop burn on a wood hull is also a concern so I'm not that confident it will work. The other day someone posted a picture and it showed the prop burn in a glass hull. Of coarse noe I can't find it! In the old wood days, some would even screw sheet copper to the hull in the prop area to avoid the prop burn. Get it out on the lake and try it - the results will be interesting. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 10:49am
| This is the whole reason why I bought this prop for this boat in the first place is because of Keith's comparison with his 79 mustang.There the same boat same hull design ,just a year off from one another.Plus on top of that its the prop that Delta propeller suggests on using.Boat dr, your going to have to explain to me what prop burn is.I have never heard of that before.I just had a funny feeling when I put it on,it just looks so big underneath the boat. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 10:59am
Here's the picture - I've seen worse! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:11am
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Since I'm not as familiar with the Acmes as I am the OJ's, can someone tell me/us what the next larger pitch size is, up from a 540. My reason for asking is simple in that as you may recall, I had Acme cut down a brand new 540 to a 12" dia to give it a try after experiencing EXACTLY what Pete's post "the Tique and the 540" revealed. However, cutting the dia 1" resulted in too many rpms and the prop is now destined for another boat with a lower power to wgt ratio. So back to the original question, a higher pitch prop would work better with an inch dia cut from it and more closely and correctly replace a 12x14. Otherwise, I don't see Acme making a new one from scratch, but if there's enough interest........ ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:13am
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MAN! I love this website. You guy's are great. I sorta considered going with a slightly larger prop on my 88 for better performance as I thought that there was quite alot of clearance between the prop and the hull. Never thought of "Prop Burn" occurring. Makes great sense to me. Thanks for broadening my "nautical mind" gentlemen. ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:27am
| Peter,is that what you are running on your Tique right now is 12" OJ?What is it a 12x_ prop.I'm kinda interested in what Keith had with his boat,if he had the same clearance issue. |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:30am
| Also how long does it take for prop burn to actually start taking place? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:47am
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Brian, The 12X14 OJ is on the Tique. In my original thread reporting the results on the 540, I think I mentioned I ended up with 5/8" clearance. This is well below the 10% of prop dia. that the prop guys want. I'm sure it is a issue with Keiths boat too. A 12" prop would use the same strut even on a different hull.
Reid, I'll have to look and see if Acme makes a steeper prop. Off hand I don't think so. Prop burn is caused by cavitation of tiny air bubbles getting caught in the turbulance of the prop. The prop being so close to the hull, it creates this turbulance. Normally with the proper distance, any air in the prop wash just gets blown out aft. The picture really shows the begining stages where the surface of the gel is etched, pitted and chunks are falling out. In later stages, the even softer poly resin under the gel will start to burn off. This burn is just like a centrifugal pump with a poor inlet design or too small of a inlet. The pump starves for water and traps the air bubbles. In time they will burn through a cast iron casing and destroy the volute on the impeller. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 1:41pm
| Peter is that a OJ legend prop.I notice there are two different OJ brands on Delta's site.So what kind of performance are you getting with your 12x14 OJ compared to the OEM prop that you had on there before?I'm also assuming that its also a 3 blade prop. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 2:14pm
Brian, It is the OJ Legend 3 blade. It came with the boat so the only thing I had to compare it with is the 540. I could go to a 12X13 and probably gain some hole shot and a couple hundred RPM's at the top end (about 4300 now) but decided to leave it as is. With the kids driving it, I didn't want to worry about over revs. With me driving it I would know to keep a eye on it. Of coarse I'm the one who went out in it and did a power turn (something I hadn't done since the 70's in my Cuda) and ended up snapping some ribs!!! The kids did find out about that and I did take some abuse for it - the wife told them! It's hard to say how long it takes for the prop burn to do major damage. The etching of the gel will start right away. If I had to make a guess at it, I'd say 20 hours. Try the 540 and you will know within 20 minutes if it's the prop!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
bmiller wrote:Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 2:24pm
I think Reid's tried enough props to be a pretty good judge on performance- and he tells me that the 12x13 OJ is the prop for 302 boats like the 16-17' Mustangs and Tiques, at least as far as top speed goes. I suspect that an Acme would give a better holeshot and have better speed holding characteristics (hence a better skiing prop), but you gotta have the hull clearance for one. Its strange that some have reported that they run just fine, while others have had problems. ------------- |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 2:54pm
| Well I am looking for a better hole shot to begin with.Also I mosting ski with my boat more than anything else.Thats the reasoning with going with the 540.It won't be till the weekend till I can get it out anyway to test it.Peter,when I do finally try the boat out what should I be looking for in terms how everything should feel.I know its a question that does have a "gray" area to it.I'm just trying to get a idea.I think I'm also going to call Delta and see what they say about the clearance issue.TRBenj I hear what your saying,hopefully I'll be one of the one's that this works out ok for.My gut tells me something different.If thats the case I'll be on the site selling a prop that I can't use. |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 3:06pm
| I got off the phone with Delta and there saying that they have sold alot of 540's for boats like mine.They did say what I would notice if something was wrong was some cavation on turns.I guess we'll see.I asked about another prop if this doesn't work and they recommened a 12x13 four blade OJ because it comes real close to the performance of a 540.What do you all think? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 3:31pm
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Brian, I just found this in the Q&A section on Delta's site:
Q. How close to the bottom of the boat can the blade tips run and what is the required aperture clearance? A. The clearance between the propeller tips and the hull should be at least 1/6 to 1/7 the propeller diameter. Clearance is equally important along the forward edges of the blade where they swing in line with the deadwood and should not be less than 1/12 of the diameter. Depending on where you measure, it figures out to 1" to 2" My biggest concern was not the cavitation in the turns (it wasn't worse in the turns) but the amount of hull harmonics it produced. The hull literally buzzed at all speeds. I immediately knew there was a cavitation problem but not caused by turning. I've seen enough prop burn to know what was going on. If you do have the same results, I would stick with the 3 blade Legend based on my but especially Reids experimenting. Edit: Sorry Doc, your experimenting too. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 3:44pm
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The four blade OJ is a Force4. Slowed down top end speed but did not help hole shot.
The 12in. OJ 3blade Legend has been used for 40 years, they must be doing somethind correct. I am not a fan of the Acme props. There are a few that praise them on this site, but there are are a few that "KNOW" they don't work on certain boats and hull shapes. If you are at one inch or less of clearance, you will burn the hull,as well as the "NOISE &VIBRATION" that comes from too little clearance. But do what cha' gotta do, and if you talk to enough people you will get the answer ya wanna hear, right??????? ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 3:51pm
| Boat dr I understand what your saying.I don't want to get the answer that I want to hear.I just want the right answer period.Thats the reason I'm on here asking people. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:02pm
I found it strange too and am wondering how many of the people who did like the 540 replaced a beat up out of balance/pitch old prop?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:21pm
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Tim, I had used General Prop for several years before I bought my Skier.
I had very little knowledge of the props used and the behavior of a 1 to 1 ratio.The leaning curve was steep, but Larry and Joel shared their expertise and their inventory with me. Did not keep a total # of props I was sent as a test bed on this old CC . But the story goes like this as to the 13 in dia. props. They were all brand new ,3 blades or 4 blades, cupped or uncupped, box stock or highly modified. Acme, Ausrel, Federal. Michigan in all flavors. They all worked they all were better than a bent up stocker,But...... The OJ 3 blade legend in a 12 dia. was the magic bullet, still tweaking but for now I an running a 12x15 and sill turning a little too many R's.Eric is gonna rework my 14 to a 15 and and some cup to see just for giggles...... ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:22pm
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In my experience the Acmes are a big improvement on modern boats, say 1980's and up. From what I've read they don't work so well on the older boats, but that may be becasue they don't make a 12" and apparently they haven't designed one for an older boat. I've replaced a 13x13 3 blade legend with a 13x12 3 blade Aceme and a 13x14 Federal with a 13x12 Acme and found the Acmes to be a huge improvement. Less vibration, better hole shot, less bow rise, as good or better top end, and in the case of the Legend it eliminated the prop sing I was getting, not to be confused with hop sing Boat Dr. ------------- |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:27pm
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If you put a 13" diameter prop on any hull designed for a 12" you're gonna have problems, no matter which MFG. An ACME 540 is debatably the best choice for a direct replacement prop for the Federal 13x13 on a ~18' Ski Nautique. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:33pm
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Doc, your experiences and mine differ quite a bit, but so do our applications. I dont think you'll find anyone who likes the classic 3-blade OJ legend on a modern hull like mine. Likewise, the Acme's apparently work well on the original Mustang/American Skier/Skylark hull (pre-71).
The 70's Mustang 16/17, Tique and Ski Nautique hulls probably fall somewhere in between our experiences. Some like the Acme's and some dont. Pete may have a good point, that any new prop will be a big improvement over a bent one. All your points about hull clearance and top speed are completely valid- and you bet Ill be going with that 12x13 OJ on my classics. However, for someone who wants to wakeboard pretty much exclusively, an Acme will likely provide a better pull. If you can find a way to run one without damaging the boat, that may be the way to go. ------------- |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:41pm
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The Acme 540 gets mixed reviews, I have one and love and hate it. For skiing and pulling it performs great, not for top end performance and certainly not for an afternoon cruise. It revs higher than the 13x13 oj that came off therefore pulls better but drinks a lot of fuel. There is also a harmonic noise with mine that will have you ready to jump out of the boat after a few minutes of cruising.
I truly feel the Acme props are "purpose built" and one single prop will not get you the perfect set up for all situations. I have 3 props for my boat depending on what I'm doing. Obviously the 540 goes on when we're boarding or skiing all day. I put on my 13x14 OJ when I know all I'm doing is cruising the river, I can cruise at 36mph and still be under 3k and before my secondaries are kicking in. The old OJ 13x13 is still a great prop for everyday use, it skis OK and cruises OK. Reid, Acme makes a 13x14, I don't know what the model # is but a call to Bill Weeks would get you what you need. I don't think a stock 351 could turn it. I still wish they would build a 13x13, I think that would really benefit someone with a little more motor than stock. Also, my 540 runs smoother than either of my freshly reconditioned cast OJ's. I'd like to try some other wheels but that's a pricey game. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:49pm
Exactly, Put one on the boat they were designed for and the results are hard to beat. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 4:50pm
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Acme makes a 13x13 in LH 1 1/8". They don't make one for RH?
The only down side I saw to switching to the Acmes is that idle speed increased enormously. ------------- |
Posted By: shawnmc
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 5:08pm
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i just bought a 540 and am putting on my 86 this weekend...I was thinking after much research i made the right decision(slalom vs board etc). I know his discussion is primarly for <80's boats. I guess I will see.
I enjoy reading this post and learning. thanks guys |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 5:09pm
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If you're replacing a 13x13 Legend, I bet you'll love it. ------------- |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 5:18pm
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Hi Brian; Try this idea if you're interested. Basically, I could send you the Acme that i had cut down just to test. I've promised the prop to Paul Waters for his 62 Classic. If you'd like to try it and then send it on to him, it would be a good test for everyone on the site esp if you could run your 540 as well. A 12" Dia Acme might work better on your boat than it did on mine as my boat is lighter being a 16, and I've got a bit more engine. Think about it and let me know. I think we'd all like to see an apples to apples comparison on the std vs the mod 12" Acme, and if the 12" worked best on yours you could probably have this done to your 540 for about $100. And I don't want to hold Paul up for very long, but I'm sure he'll be willing to wait a week for the common good of the group. I could have it to you by Mon-Tues. Any interest? ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 9:19pm
| Yes Reid I am very interested if you could send me that prop.I appreciate the offer to use the cut down 540.My # is (859)283-9364 Or I can give you a call.What ever you want to do. |
Posted By: taxabel
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 10:25pm
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People have been pushing the 540 on here forever. I dreamed about buying one for my boat based on the comments from some. I finally bought one and tested it last weekend. 540 replaced a 13x13 4 blade. It was a dramatic improvement over the old prop. My top end increased 4 MPH. This is on an '84. Are you now saying that the 540 is a piece of poop? ------------- 84raidertique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:11pm
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Scott, I urge you to read the complete thread again because you have certainly missed the details regarding the 540. 13" great! 12" ??? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-01-2008 at 11:12pm
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Thanks to Reid, I did some prop testing last fall . With my set up, a vintage Federal 12x14 was a little better than a new OJ 12x13. At 3000 rpm the Federal ran 34.4 mph to the OJ's 32.4. At WOT the Fed was at 45 mph @ 4200,the OJ was 44.8 @ 4300. Both lifted the bow nicely. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-02-2008 at 12:26am
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I always wondered about performance on the 540 and 542 on my 80'
Have anyone ran any comparison test? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-02-2008 at 1:35am
| Well guys it won't be till Sunday till I get the boat to test the prop.I have a Kentucky Derby party to be at since I am from that state.A good time will be had by all.Reid,I am very interested in the prop that you offered and will send it to the next person that needs it.I left my number on the thread and I am available in the evenings.Just let me know how to work it.Thank you. |
Posted By: shawnmc
Date Posted: May-02-2008 at 1:59am
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this has been a great thread.
pete,boat dr etc would you mind explaining to us(me) rookies the concept with pitch and cup...please. thanks |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-02-2008 at 7:35am
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Shawn, The first dimension in the prop size is the diameter and needs no explaination. The second is the pitch and could be decribed as the angle of the blades. It is the theoretical distance a prop will travel in one revolution of that prop. If it has a 13" pitch, the boat will in theory move 13". This does not factor in slip or the efficiency of that prop. If the prop is 90% efficient then this prop will only push the boat 11.7". Slip is always the big unknown because it will change with each hull, prop type, pitch and even RPM's. The 540 type of design (more blade area and aft rake of the blades) has a higher efficiency and consequently out performs the old basic props. Cup is the curl bent into the tips of the blades. I believe it was in the early 60's when someone discovered that cupping the tips reduced cavitation (slip) and this improved the performance on some hulls. It has the effect of directing more water aft instead of out the sides.
Hope this helps. Prop selection has always been difficult and to this day is still - try it and see what happens! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: shawnmc
Date Posted: May-02-2008 at 10:07am
| thanks. I understand now. |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-04-2008 at 10:45pm
| Ok guys I got the boat out this morning since installing the 540 on the boat and actually got very good results.I was pleased with the hole shot and the midrange power with the prop.Of course I was worried about the clearance of the prop as describe earlier in the thread.I did not notice any bad vibration with the prop throughout all RPM ranges.In fact with the 540 on,it ran very smooth. I put the old prop back on at the landing just to get a comparison between the two.Putting the boat in reverse was much smoother feeling with the 540 than with the old Federal prop.I did take notice the prop clearance between the old and new prop.The old prop had only a 5/8" clearance where the new 540 has a 1/2" clearance.I did not see any damage of prop burn but of course I was only out about a total of a hour and a half on the water testing.At this point and time I guess I will just moniter for prop burn after each use.These were my findings on the prop so let me know what you all think.Thanks for everyones input. |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 1:59pm
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Hi Brian. I haven't heard from you with an address or number (sorry if it's on my home email and I missed it) but I wanted to know if you still wanted to try this smaller prop. It sounds like you're doing OK with the std 540, so i thought I'd check. Did you get RPM numbers with the 540? Just let me know if you still have any interest as otherwise I'm shipping it off to Paul. Pete, you want to try it? But your boat is not near the water yet is it?
Paul, if you're out there, not to worry. It's still your prop! But being the only one like it in existence probably, it may be good to let some others try it out. ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 3:23pm
| Hey Reid,I sent you an email through the site.My numbers are included.Thanks. |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 3:27pm
| Reid do you have another email address? Everytime time I send it the email fails to go through on the site here. |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 12:56pm
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Sure Brian. Simply reidp@bellsouth.net, which is the best one to use. I've had similar problems with emails thru the site as have many others(?). ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 1:39pm
| Reid I sent you an email. |
Posted By: reidp
Date Posted: May-09-2008 at 12:57pm
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Brian,
I never received your email at my "reidp@bellsouth.net address. And then I sent you one thru the Site here which you probably didn't get. If you get a chance, give me a call at 704-451-5080. Thanks, Reid ------------- ReidP /diaries/details.asp?ID=231&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 1973 Mustang |
Posted By: bmiller
Date Posted: May-09-2008 at 2:38pm
| Sure,thanks Reid. |
Posted By: 67nautique312
Date Posted: May-21-2008 at 11:25am
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Brian,
hows the prop testing out? Paul, ------------- 1963 Classic (handed down to my daughter) 67 Riviera 68 barracuda 1971 Ski Nautique Promo 86 Silver Nautique 1995 Ski Nautique |