Water Test ends with overheating!
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10395
Printed Date: September-26-2024 at 8:18pm
Topic: Water Test ends with overheating!
Posted By: wakesurfer
Subject: Water Test ends with overheating!
Date Posted: May-05-2008 at 7:29pm
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First off I have read every post about idles, and overheating issues.. this one is a mixture of all... I hope someone can help. I have this senario: This is the second water test on my newly purchased 1977 ski nautique.. engine ford 351 - holley carb. So, I start it up and it warms up to 180 degrees within only 10 minutes of idle and a few minutes of running in nice clean cold water... The Facts: At 180 it hates to be shut off. And runs rough over 170... It loves 150 to 160! The PO had the idle set at aprox 900 to 1000 rpms - seems very high. I have been through the entire water coolant system - check impeller blades, intake hoses and trans pump - all working looking good. I have tightened all hose clamps hard. No Leaks are sighted... yet - here is something to consider regarding the coolant system. From the intake to the Trans coolant filter pump the hose is not standard water intake... it is a retro fit hard orange hose then it goes from several fittings and other spliced houses to the impeller pump, which I have taken apart and is in good working order... The impeller is new, yet the pump looks old. Also, the PO mentioned the belt drive that goes onto the RWP is from an unknown source and of unknown origin... could it be the belt is not turning fast enough? COULD IT BE : I need a new RWP? I need new hoses? They dont leak? I need just a basic tune up? Allot to consider I know. BTW - My shifter and trans issues are NOW resolve due to the folks here on this forum!!!! Thanks Guys. Jamie newbie |
Replies:
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-05-2008 at 7:30pm
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Could it be the thermostat? |
Posted By: azeus17
Date Posted: May-05-2008 at 9:34pm
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Have you tried the bucket test for the RWP? That would eliminate your question about the pump, belt, and half the hoses.
Do a search for "Bucket test" and you should find the details. There are two ways to do it, you can suck out of the bucket or fill it up. Either way should take about 20 seconds or less for 5 gallons, if I remember correctly. ------------- Boats: Current: 02 SANTE Sold: 89 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-05-2008 at 9:38pm
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I will try out the bucket test. GREAT TIP! I did once put a 5 gal bucket under my boat and attached it w a piece of a garden hose stuck up in the intake --- my boat needs a strainer... I will try it. No strainer equals no good! maybe the strainer will help funnel the water in? |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: May-05-2008 at 10:52pm
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I wonder how long it was run without the strainer; is there a cup strainer inline? If not you could have pieces of whatever lodged in somewhere. You probably checked, but the oil cooler will trap debris.
I had the same orange hose on my 79 but it didn't have any splices. It went straight to the cooler(around the tranny once). ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-05-2008 at 11:07pm
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The PO said it he had no idea how long it has not had a strainer... several years i suppose. Clean lakes only I guesse? Inline strainer - No. The splices are more severe on my oil cooler to my RWP. I have checked and removed all the debris from the intake hoses to the RWP - the lake debris gathers in the transmission pump strainer. I check it before each drive. So, no trash in system as far as I can tell. Speaking of through hull strainers: How do you measure the size of the strainer you need? Intake hose or hull hole? Tune Up or Pump Up? Jamie |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 12:34am
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I have searched the forum and cant find a visual - picture of a 5 gal bucket test. I put a piece of a garden hose in a bucket - primed the water pump and hoses first... then put the hose inside another hose which ran to the RWP - the water hose diameter is smaller than the other intake hoses. I started up the boat then inspected the water in the bucket.... It was now going down remotely fast in aprox 34 to 40 seconds it had only drained the bucket down a few inches with LOTS more to go, I felt the hose and it was very slight suchion.... could it be my set up is too restricting? So, that said: Can someone send me some details on how to rule our your RWP? Cheers... Learning ALLOt. jamie need more beer... |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 1:19am
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THIS JUST IN FROM THE PO:
I have never done a tune up on the boat so new plug, wires and a cap problem would not hurt. (3 YEARS) Also the boat has always ran at about 180 and I never had any problem. The pulley that I put on the was the same size as the one that came off of it the only the I had to do was drill out the bolt holes a little. ANY IDEAS? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 9:58am
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Jamie, You have mentioned "splices" in hoses. I think it may be time to replace the hoses back to original and then start over with trouble shooting. You state that they "don't leak" but they may be sucking air.
Greg (buffalo) mentioned a strainer. He is reffering to a inline basket type that was used on later year boats. I feel to are referring to the one on the bottom of the boat - correct? There isn't a tranmission strainer. You may be looking at the trans cooler. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: azeus17
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 4:57pm
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When I did the bucket test, I disconnected the hose going from the through hull pick up to the inline strainer and put it in a bucket and sucked the water out. Just put the bucket right next to the engine. Water was all gone in less than 15 sec.
Sounds like you do not have a in line strainer, so you may want to disconnect the hose that runs from the trans cooler to the RWP and place that directly in the bucket and suck the water out. There should be plenty of suction. Don't use the weak, restrictive garden hose. ------------- Boats: Current: 02 SANTE Sold: 89 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 8:25pm
Why?? None of my boats have ever had strainers. Never had a issue but of coarse I don't boat in swamps ether! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
wakesurfer wrote:Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 11:30pm
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I am off to test the bucket ! Thanks!! Jamie |
Posted By: Barracuda
Date Posted: May-06-2008 at 11:33pm
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Jamie, lots of good advice on here already.
I suggest you perform a basic tune up which includes setting the timing properly with a timing light. Then adjust your idle if it is still high. As for the overheating: After replacing the splices go ahead and replace the thermostat with one that is recommended for your applications. Probably a 160 degree t-stat. the stat that is in there is probably of a higher operating temperature- too hot. Good luck and be sure to report back with your progress so this can be used as a reference for others. -Brad ------------- Former: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=759" rel="nofollow - '86 Nautique http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=507" rel="nofollow - '65 Barracuda |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 12:22am
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Thanks again to all. I performed a bucket test with large hose from bottom of RWP directly to Big tub of water and the thing had enormous suction. I could only use a storage tub container about 1/2 full (anyone know how much they hold?) it sucked that thing dry in less than 30 seconds. I put my hand over the hose and it had very strong suction. SO, I think we are leaning to the thermostat. I cant seem to find it? Is it the small gizmo with a wire coming out of it near the circulating pump... on that note, could it be the circ pump? |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 1:38am
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I found the t stat, and it is a rusty one... and I am sure the original of over 1,000hrs.
just wondering which one to buy? skidim has several for the PCM 351 engine. Any ideas? Thanks gents., jamie |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 2:02am
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You can get a 142 degree marine t stat at NAPA. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 12:30pm
A 160 'stat will cause the same problem (and have him running at 180+). He needs a 142, which would keep the temp at 160. ------------- |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 9:41pm
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Well, I A160 in the boat. GOing to get the 142! I have a basic question about my hoses. from the thru hull intake the hose size is 1 and 1/4 to the Trans coller which is 1inch diam then out trans cooler to my raw water pump which is 1 inch and a 1/4 so my splices mentioned are to accomodate the different sizes. Is this common or wrong? It seems like it would be restricting the flow! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-07-2008 at 11:28pm
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Jamie,
Somethings not correct or I'm very confused! You have 1&1/4" ID hose somehow "spliced" to a trans cooler that has hose barbs (the male ends for the hose) made for 1" ID hose?? Post some pictures of these "splices" or try describing them again. Off hand, it sounds like potential spots to suck air. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-08-2008 at 1:29am
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Exactly!
My intake through hull ID is 1and1/4 ------ that hose is connected to the trans cooler ID 1inch. I have a hoses coupling reducer for the 4 inches of hose that come off the trans cooler. I think I am just going to get a single piece of 1 and 1/4 and make it really tight on the 1 inch ID connections. Any tips or similar set ups? Is this common? LAST GREAT COMMENT! I was told by several marine mechanics to not even use a thermostat! Any thoughts on running w out a s tat! I am such a rookie. |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-08-2008 at 2:08am
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I assume my coolant system should be intake to trans cooler to RWP. Its just my ID's of my system are not the same. |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-08-2008 at 2:27am
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Still thinking running with out t stat! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-08-2008 at 8:34am
Jamie, It sure sounds like a PO replaced the trans cooler with a 1" instead of the correct 1&1/4". This is putting a restriction on water flow and with the reducer couplings/connections it adds to the number of points that are potential leaks. When you ran the bucket test, you pulled the 1&1/4" off the RWP and put it in the bucket. This bypassed the problem area with the restrictions and the potential leaks (air). This should be the correct cooler: http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=R147014 - trans cooler I suggest you get the new cooler. Your idea of trying to clamp a 1&1/4" hose on the 1" barb on the cooler won't work. You will never get it clamped down that far. Running without a T stat is not a good idea. There is a complete thread on it that just popped up again. I'm sorry to here that you have heard from marine "mechanics" to run without one. If they said that, I personally wouldn't take a lawnmower to any of them!! At least you didn't refer to them as "technicians"!!! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3870&PN=1 - "running without thermostats" ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Barracuda
Date Posted: May-08-2008 at 5:35pm
Thanks for the correction Tim. I've got a severe case of the DUH's going lately.. 
-Brad ------------- Former: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=759" rel="nofollow - '86 Nautique http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=507" rel="nofollow - '65 Barracuda |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-11-2008 at 11:44am
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Well here is the latest... It appears to be a combination of several things: Old cracked intake hoses reducing down to a 1 inch trans cooler then onto a old 160 t stat. I replaced the hoses and removed the t stat. Got a 142 in the mail from Skidim. Still not sold on the reason why to use a t stat in an older 351 engine that needs all the water it can get to stay cool... in my case I have a smaller diameter trans cooler. How many folks out there run w out t stats? Did a dry garage test and it ran good. Thanks again for all the wonderful input!!! Off to lake test for the finally! God Speed. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-11-2008 at 12:01pm
I think you have missed the whole point on the reason for the T stat. Think of it this way. It's not there to keep it COOL but rather to keep the engine HOT. More important is it regulates the temperature. You have a T stat in you house to keep the temp at one spot no matter what the outside temp is. Same thing. In the late 50's, the marinizers of the marine engine started putting on the T stats. Yes, before that time there weren't any! Without the T stat, due to the extreme temp swings, tolerances of these engines needed to be quite loose. This isn't a ideal when looking for HP in a engine. If the T stat wasn't needed, it wouldn't be on your engine. Where are you getting the idea that your engine "needs all the water it can get to stay cool.."? Jamie, You can do what you want but many here have given you the best advice possible. Go back and read the posts again. Did you bother to read this thread? http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3870&PN=1 - "running without thermostats" ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-11-2008 at 12:12pm
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Thanks for the insight. What should a 351 commander engine temp be during normal operation? Mine goes from 140 to 160 w out a t stat and 180 to 190 w 160 t stat. What is the difference of the commander engine to others.. do they like it hot? No worries... I have a 142 t stat in the mail. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-11-2008 at 3:23pm
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Jamie,
Are you going to replace the 1" oil cooler with the 1&1/4"? The "mechanic" that told you to run it without the T stat, is he the same guy who told you; "needs all the water it can get to stay cool.." I'm trying to figure out where some of this mis information is coming from? Tell me more about him. Go with Tim's figure of 160 with the 142 T stat. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: adamt
Date Posted: May-12-2008 at 3:30am
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Pete,
Just wondering, why do some people refer to a 142 degree t-stat and others refer to a 143. Are these the same thing? ------------- -Adam 1973 Skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-12-2008 at 12:21pm
Yup, same thing. ------------- |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-13-2008 at 8:35pm
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So, ran the boat with out t stat and it ran good and cool, probably too cool... couldnt get it above 140 no matter what. The t stat will go in when it arrives from skidim. However, I still have a starting up problem. It will start fine, run fine but dont ever turn it off! Whats the deal on it not wanting to restart after running for awhile it seems like it is flooded. My battery is good and charged and my amps show 14 on the gauge. Carb issues? |
Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: May-13-2008 at 8:54pm
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Put the Thermostat in the boat and then adjust the engine timing so you can turn it off. The wrong timing will cause an engine to run hot as well as knock and "run on" after you turn it off.
------------- 64 Skier 66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-13-2008 at 8:57pm
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I will. Yet, it has never knocked or missed.. or run on. Still the timing? How do I adjust the timing with out a light --- easy? It just wont start. Shuts down fine, then on restart needs lots of gas to make it try to start. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-13-2008 at 11:13pm
Jamie, I went back through the thread but can't find it - must be in another thread about the starting problem! When you say it won't start, do you mean it won't turn over (crank) or will crank and not fire? I'm confused again because you mention a good battery and a 14 amp charge,. (BTW, after about 10 min. of running, the 14 should taper to almost nothing without anything turned on) ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: wakesurfer
Date Posted: May-14-2008 at 9:41am
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So, it will crank but not fire...until several tries and then seems to be flooded. It acts flooded. some threads mention crab adjustments and sticking butterflys.. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-14-2008 at 10:22am
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Jamie, You say it acts flooded. Why do you think this? Here's a short thread on hard starting: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10211&KW=needle - hard starting
When warm, your choke butterfly should be in the open position. Take a look with the flame arrestor off. Don't look down the carb with it off and try to start it at the same time. You may end up missing eyebrows! Don't go and start messing with adjustments at this time. Yes you will need a timing light to check it. It is realativly easy. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |