Stranded on water today, Bendix?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11690
Printed Date: December-21-2024 at 10:58pm
Topic: Stranded on water today, Bendix?
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Subject: Stranded on water today, Bendix?
Date Posted: August-24-2008 at 9:56pm
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(82 SN2001)
was wakeboarding for about 3 hours, finally turned off the motor in a cove, it wouldnt refire. starter was spining, but the motor wasnt. i always carry my full tool box/set so i pulled the starter. gear was there and in good shape. although there was a thin metal scrowd inside around the gear (holding the spring mechanism?) and it appeared worn, thin and chewed up. starter is only a 2-3 years old. heres what its doing (vid) is it the bendix not engaging? solonoid? new starter fix this? can just the bendix be replaced? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyif540_LQo - VIDEO also while i had the starter off in the water, i noticed all this in the bell housing! not in the bottom, but in the small pop out on the side where the starter goes, the penny is just for size reference. any clue what they are? and of course what do you think the main problem is (no starting) 
------------- '82 SN2001 |
Replies:
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-24-2008 at 11:29pm
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well you either have no teeth on that section of the flywheel or the bearning to the nose cone of the start is on your papper towel a long with some rollers, so take the start to be checked out, or you can do it with some jumper cables your looking for the gear to move forward like it would if it was engaging the flywheel. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-24-2008 at 11:45pm
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the flywheel looked perfect.
yeah i tryed to check the starter gear moveing out(bendix), i hooked it up and layed it down and hit the key, just a click, didnt even spin the starter, it must use the block for ground so i wasnt able to test it, but i tryed. ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 12:23am
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Stang, the parts you have pictured are the start drive sprags.These parts allow the drive to only free wheel in on direction and turn the motor in the other.
A starter drive only will fix the problem,but finding a RR drive may not be the easiest fix.A starter may the the quickest way to get back on the water. Had your starter been hanging up, or after run after the engine started, this will cause the "drive to grenade"????????????? Boat dr Chris I am surprised you could not identify the rollers and the retaining clips that make up the internals in the drive!!!!!!!!It is a roller clutch........ ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 12:33am
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you two are always so helpful/knowledgable, sounds like youve confirmed what i already thought.
i hate to even ask/think about it, but should i pull the tranny to check for more loose parts in the bottom of the flywheel housing? 
how many of those fat "needle bearings" make up the one way mechanism? ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 10:09am
It's ford not GM never had the guts of a ford out before, GM yea regardless it's not good for him. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
boat dr wrote:Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 1:15pm
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Chris they both use the same type "Roller Clutch" set up, just the means to engage it into the flywheel is different.
Stang , I would not pull the tranny for remove of the grenade pieces. A long magnet would allow for a "check and see" for any FOD left after the explosion...........Boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 1:45pm
yea I guess your right those are the pieces that actually tranfers the power from the rotor's shaft to the gear just didn't recall using springs/clips like that on GM's and I knew the rollerrs where to big for the needle bearing on the tail end and we used a bushing in the nose housing so wasn't sure on the ford design, It's junk regardless and need a rebuild, but better just to use it as a core on a new one that's all ready done enstead of trying to fix this one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 2:40pm
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Chris, the newer GM starters now use a needle bearing in place of the "oil-lite" bushing that supports the armature and drive inside the "drive end housing"That is the proper name for the part that bolts to the block.
The little "springs" are part of the roller clutch that allows for free wheeling after the motor starts........... As far as it being junk , only a tear down will reveal the condition, a new drive could possibly be all thats needed, but then again a NEW NOT, REBUILT UNIT IS NEEDED. There is only a small price differance between the two.........Boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 3:06pm
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depends on what company does the rebuild and the price difference, but yes if it is an extra 10-20 bucks for new then yes new, but 100 bucks well I don't know. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 3:31pm
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ski dim wants $265 (marine new)
arco wants $165 (marine reman)(this is whats on there now) o'rielly wants $55 (reman) with a lifetime warrantee. any reason i couldnt use this 82 f-150 w/ 351 starter from o'rielly? ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 3:41pm
well it's an automotive unit and the wrong rotation for starters and won't work. Then there's that explosion issue you will create too with an automotive style starter. Get the marine unit check with NAPA and make sure they look up a marine application, but pretty sure that's who I got the best price at when I replaced mine. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:16pm
just called napa, they dont list ski nautique, or correct craft in there marine book. he said if i had a number off the origonal he couild look that up, but mines a reman arco starter :(, so he said my only choice was to bring it in, and try to match it up manually by looks
also, do i need CW or CCW rotation? pse lists it as CW, and skidim list it as RH(which is CW if im thinking right) i just called a local alternator/starter rebuild shop, he said if it spins the same way as a car hes got the parts, if it spins opposite, he doesnt. ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:26pm
you need to look under pleasure craft marine, or crusauder, ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:29pm
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o ok im an idiot, didnt even cross my mind to list the MOTOR manuf., more questions added above... ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:32pm
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CCW reverse rotation is what you need. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:37pm
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hmm look here (CW)
http://www.psepmarineparts.biz/store/mercruiser_starter_motors.htm#L57_70100 - arco starter and here (RH) http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=JMS0003-410090LH - skidim starter maybe the motor and starter spin opposite directions right? maybe there refering to starter vs the motor rotation or vis versa? ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:44pm
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the skidim one is correct the other is refering to engine rotation car LH early CC's RH ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:53pm
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ok so there both what i need/correct right? on the phone with pse/arco right now ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 5:57pm
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don't know which arco one you where refering don't believe you understand correctly what you need is a start for a reverse rotation motor application CCW and CW on the cranking motor, the way it is spelled out in the arco I take that as a CW engine which would be a CCW cranking motor and not what you want. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 6:12pm
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crap well i just ordered the arco one from pse.
its listed under mercruiser. i wonder if mercruisers are opposite rotate than my PCM? ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 6:29pm
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Stang you need a CCW , regardless of what the 79 says with that line of BS it would confuse anybody.
Sierra part number is 18-5904, NAPA can order under that part #, ans it is a reman unit for reverse rotation Ford motors......................Boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 6:42pm
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im so angry and confused lol. ive been on the phone for an hour. no one has a clue what im talking about, one place never heard of correct craft or ski nautique or pcm, and it was a marine parts shop online. this CW CCW RH LF crap has me pulling my hair out. plus the price differences between the arco ($129) and skidim/napa ($264) is alot which is why im trying to get the arca, but want to make sure its right.
this is what i ordered. "arco 70100 FITS: MANY 302, 351 FORDS Nose extends 2 3/8” into flywheel 12 Volt, CW rotation Side battery terminal" ive got an arco starter in the boat now. every single starter on arcos site for a 351 list it as CW rotation..... http://www.arcomarine.com/xhtml/Pages%2031-38%20InBoard%20Starters.pdf - arco home page when its called a RH motor, is that from the back, or front? called arco themselves, guy actually new what he was talking about and gave a damn. i think im convinced that the CW i ordered is wrong. he said there CCW starter(not on site) is a conversion to a new style with slyonoid and gear reduction like a gm unit, and requires some simple wireing to make work. ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 7:19pm
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Stang , just got off the phone with Keith at Arco Marine.......
CCW side terminal starter for your motor is .. Arco #70201........ The unit you ordered will bolt right up.BUT...Will spin the motor the wrong direction.........Boat dr..1-318-386-2825 ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 7:28pm
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thats the exact part # i got too.
$197.95 how can a simple 2 bolt 1 wire starter be SUCH a huge pain in my ass lol. glad we got it figured out. im gonna hit up napa tonight to see what they got, as he said he can have it here tommorrow, so i dont miss hitting the water this weekend.  ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 7:53pm
Stang if you order what you have said above , you have the wrong starter.You need a CCW Part #70201/ Not a 70100 Engine rotation of a Reverse Rotation Motor is CCW when veiwed from the front or Backwards to a normal car motor....Billy ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 9:15pm
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yeah i know, i ordered that before the CCW discovery. i cancled the order already.
took the seirra part # ya gave me, and headed to napa, on the way i decided to try o'reilly, gave them the part number, and they had it! even a cheaper remanuf. one as well. i got the refurb one for $104, be here at 8am, i cant thank you enough. ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-25-2008 at 9:35pm
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Stang, also would recomend a new solenoid to go with that 100.00 starter.But do not buy a Chinese, try to find a top of the line product.This may be the reason your drive "Grenaded".
Do not be too proud to walk into a Ford dealership as they may have an OEM in stock.............Billy ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: August-26-2008 at 8:24pm
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Arco:
You can just buy the drive gear/bendix. http://www.arcomarine.com/xhtml/Pages%2031-38%20InBoard%20Starters.pdf - ARCO STARTERS ------------- |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 12:17am
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my problem was the bearing at the very end of the snout was gone.
ok update boat dr. got the starter the good news: it bolts up and turns over the motor. the bad news: the starter has 3 bolts holes, my motor has two. the hump and post are in the wrong spot, the hump actually rests on the stringer. and the biggy, its spinning the motor the wrong direction, the crank pulley is without a doubt spinning RH/CW, which means the flywheel is turning LH/CCW right? on the starter the reman sticker says: Wilson D6TF11001BA 12V 213 and stamped in the case, we can barely make out(only 90% sure on these) its says: AUTOLITE 12 USA 67AF-11001-B-9B4B any ideas? should i go back and by the real one by that sierra #? (ie not this reman) or is there another number i should try? not only does it spin the wrong way but bolt pattern is wrong and hump and post are wrong. thoughts? help?
OK UPDATE AGAIN! just got off the phone with orielly, gave him the sierra # you gave me boat dr, and now those old two starters that showed up monday arent there and its showing a new Wilson Reman part # of 91-02-5880..... the saga continues.... ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 12:29am
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Call Me 1-318-386-2825 ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 3:08pm
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lol boat dr your a HOOT, half tech encyclopedia, half comedian.
well i got bad news. napa, and orielly confirmed that starter (sierra # 18-5904, wilson 91-02-5880) has been discontinued with no replacement.
talk about back at square one! looks like i wont be on the water this labor day. cabin fever sucks.  ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 3:19pm
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Cory, Look for a rebuild shop in your area. They are listed under "auto - electric". They may be able to do the job of just putting in the parts needed - like the roller ramp clutch (sprag) and pinion gear. There isn't a rotation issue with the clutch. It's just the direction it's assembled. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 3:44pm
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i called our local starter/alternator shop. he said they dont have any parts to redo a CCW starter. i think all the starter needs is a new bearing(or whatever that is) at the very end/tip of the drive.
although i think the gear might be frozen to the shaft too. i dont still have the old starter to confirm, but tonight i will. boat dr just called me, hes tryin to work some magic with arco.  ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 3:46pm
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call Skidim and have them over night one to you. Question is how bad do you want to be boating this week-end????? then spend the money for the new one and call it a day. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 3:50pm
The only RH Ford starter listed on SkiDIM's site is a reman'd unit for $265. Perhaps new ones are NLA? Id keep looking for a local shop that can rebuild your old one. ------------- |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 5:44pm
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well thanks to billy (boat dr) and walt (arco)
ive got a arco 70201(actually a gm style conversion) starter on the way appears to the the only option now (other than the skidim one)
im right on the line for 2 day shipping so well see if it shows up friday in time for the weekend. since owning the boat ive only missed 1 weekend not being on the water. billy, he wouldnt give me the boat dr discount, but at this point i didnt care. wanted to thank everyone for there help
although im not getting my hopes up after that last starter, until i see this one spin that motor CW with my own eyes and fire it.  ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 5:50pm
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So how much was the ARCO?
Seems like it would have made the most sense to go with skidim on monday. ------------- |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 6:02pm
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BILLY, got your voicemail, lol thats a fkn classic, wish i could post it haha.
yes i was refering to the flywheel rotation, not the harmonic balancer. behindprop: arco was $197 hind site is always 20/20. i had no way to predict gettign the wrong starter, or the discontinued correct one. heres ALL i knew on monday: skidim: $264 and a week to get here. napa wilson reman: $104 and next morning delivery. which route would you have gone? ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 6:03pm
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delete ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: August-27-2008 at 10:00pm
I have bought two items before when it was a situation like that. Ill keep that in mind since I also have the same starter. Tim ------------- |
Posted By: STANG KILLA SS
Date Posted: August-30-2008 at 12:12am
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starter came in today! (friday) crazy last minute delivery right before i left work.
came home and got her bolted up. the flanges are thicker so id recomend getting 1/4" longer bolts, as the few threads that went in were feeling quite soft and ready to strip. the wireing was simple and quick i had to put the starter cable on the belt sander as it wouldnt fit on the silinoid, other than that wired right up. i hit the key, and i $hit you not the old girl fired FIRST piston up. god i love this boat, she'll put you threw hell, but hearing that motor makes me smile ear to ear. still as im typing
i couldnt believe she started so quick after being spun backwards, flooded etc. well im back on the water for the weekend. thanks billy for all your help. heres some pics to help out folks in the future. arco starter 70201 
 ------------- '82 SN2001 |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: August-30-2008 at 12:41am
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Good to hear things have worked out for you Cory.
I miss Killeen. My daughter was stationed in Ft Hood and I was able to make the trip over to see here on multiple occasions. She is now in Hawaii and the motorhome nor bike will make that trip. Enjoy the long holiday weekend. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |