Where is my oil going?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11818
Printed Date: November-15-2024 at 12:09am
Topic: Where is my oil going?
Posted By: 79Tique
Subject: Where is my oil going?
Date Posted: September-02-2008 at 7:26pm
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My 94 Nautique with a PCM 351, carb is burning oil. It has 575 hours on it, 490 of the hours were from the previous owner. I do not know how good they were about care. I'm meticulous about care, and so I notice the oil burning. I notice oil smoke when I cold start it and a little at idle. I never smell oil smoke while skiing or see it while on the throttle. The motor runs great, with good power, and tone. It only holds a tune up for about 50 running hours; this may not be related (see my carbon in distributer thread).
I'm wondering how it's burning the oil. Do you guy's think it's valves and I could get away with doing a valve job or do I need to do rings as well? If this were a European car with moderate to low miles like the hours represent on the boat I would do valves and not consider the rings. I'm not as familiar with the Ford stuff in a ski boat. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Replies:
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: September-02-2008 at 7:57pm
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Do you have to add oil to it between oil changes? I'm questioning whether it's oil or fuel smoke your seeing. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 74SkiNautique
Date Posted: September-02-2008 at 8:13pm
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Fuel smoke is more black, and Oil smoke is more blue. ------------- 74SkiNautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:04pm
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Yes, I'm adding about a quart every two tanks of gas. or 8-10 running hours. It's blue oil smoke.
I tried changing to a thicker oil and it only helped a very little. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:09pm
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79Tique, Run your engine and get it to operating temp. Then pull your oil filler cap then remove the PVC hose from the valve and plug it. Start the engine and see if you see smoke puffing out of the valve cover. If you do the rings are worn and a valve job will not do you any good. You may be in luck though because a little smoke at startup only usually means worn valves. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-02-2008 at 10:19pm
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nuttyskier2002, Are you saying pull the hose from the valve cover to the carb? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 3:44am
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Yes...the one going from the carb spacer to the PVC valve at the cover. ------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 10:10am
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a compression test wouldnt hurt either, after you do the above, if you are getting alot of blow by you will see alot of brown/tan sludge down inside the valve covers. have you pulled a plug and checked how it is burning?
did the PO pull the old hour meter trick? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 2:47pm
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Eric,
I have changed the plugs a few times as the motor only holds a tune up for about 40-50 hours. The plugs are black,wet and oily. I think the hour meter is correct as I have been inside the dash to install the Perfect Pass and the wire connections on the meter are original and unbroken. The guy who owned it was not mechanical at all and I suspect they did not change oil as he should have. He and his brother were pretty good skiers and they used the boat to ski the course at 34-36 mph and that is about all they did. So it was pulling pretty hard most of the time. The rest of the boat is in fantastic shape the trans runs great. I replaced the alternator, starter, all the ignition parts, and a bunch of other stuff this spring so after the motor is fixed it will be a like new boat. I'm committed to fixing it, but don't want to do more than what's needed. I'm thinking because of the low hours and how smooth the motor runs that I might have some bad valve guides. I'm inclined to pull the heads when the season is over do a good valve job, but if experienced folks think I should do rings or more I'll take that project on. I'm looking for some opinions. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 3:02pm
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black oily and wet is not good for the plugs at all, guess start with a leak down test, no need for a compression test, leak down will nail it down to the rings or the valves and/or guides for each cylinder so you should be armed with enough information after that to determind whether a full blown rebuild is in order or if you just need to do the top end. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 4:58pm
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How is a leak down test done? if you have the time to describe it.
Thanks for the the suggestions. Gabe ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 5:13pm
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leak-down_tester - explaination
basicly what you do is get the tester you have to have a compressor to do the test, but one cyclinder at a time bring it to TDC on the compression stroke after removing the plug so you can tell it's on the right stroke, then hook up the gauge and read it to see the percentage of leakage, usually there is a scale that shows good and bad but not all do. Normally there is always a little past the rings, excessive means the rings are shot, if you remove the PCV valve or breather on the other side and hear it there it's the valve guides, through the carb or exhaust is a valve issue, oil pan it's the rings. sorry for not being a little more specific just know how to do it and where to get the tester and hoses out of the tool box to perform the test. I'm not an Encyclopedia like doc thinks I should be. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 5:49pm
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That's great. Thanks for your explanation and the attached. I'll do the test over the next few days and see what's up.
Thanks again for the help; this is exactly what I was looking for. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-03-2008 at 6:27pm
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79N, How do I be sure I have TDC on a given cylinder? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 4:14am
How can air leak past the valve guides without leaking past the valves first. And then wouldn't you hear it in either the intake or exhaust? I think it's safe to say that you can't check valve guides with a compression tester. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
79nautique wrote:Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 4:26am
79Tique, you don't have to get the piston exactly on TDC, just get it close so that both valves are closed. Start at #1 and follow the firing order. Use your timing marks for #1 and then turn your crank over by hand 1/4 turn to get the next cylinder to TDC. You may need to use a breaker bar or long 1/2 ratchet to lock the crank in place when you feed the cylinder the air pressure. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 2:24pm
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OK, Thanks I'll figure it out. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: h20loo
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 8:57pm
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Valve seals? ------------- 70 Mustang project |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 9:14pm
got to keep you on your toes was expecting Billy to chime in.  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 10:10pm
Yeh, that question came up around here too. Does anyone know if the valve seals on this motor can be replaced with out pulling the heads? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 10:14pm
At least I can find out if I can get away with just a valve job. It would be nice to leave the motor in the boat. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: h20loo
Date Posted: September-04-2008 at 10:26pm
After you have done all the compression tests wet and dry, decarbonized the engine and everything is healthy but you still get cold start oil smo0ke then... Valve seals can be done in the boat using compressed air in the sparkplug hole(or cotton rope pressed in the combustion chamber) and then a valve spring compresser to remove the keepers, spring, and valve seal. Two tips- use the regular rubber seals as they are most forgiving and give all the valve keepers a good rap with a wooden mallet before you start. ------------- 70 Mustang project |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-05-2008 at 7:30pm
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[/QUOTE] After you have done all the compression tests wet and dry, decarbonized the engine and everything is healthy but you still get cold start oil smo0ke then... Valve seals can be done in the boat using compressed air in the sparkplug hole(or cotton rope pressed in the combustion chamber) and then a valve spring compresser to remove the keepers, spring, and valve seal. Two tips- use the regular rubber seals as they are most forgiving and give all the valve keepers a good rap with a wooden mallet before you start.[/QUOTE] When you say wet and dry do you mean with and with out oil? How would you recommend decarbonizing the motor? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: h20loo
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 12:37am
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Dry compression test first. All plugs out,WOT, screwin compression gauge.
If the #s are not what you want then put a shot of oil in each cylinder as you do the test over. Significant difference would indicate a mechanical problem with that cylinder- anything from a stuck(carbon or rust)ring to a broken ring or cracked or melted piston or a scored cylinder wall. You have a product called seafoam down ther e that sounds like good stuff. I would mix it with trans fluid and fog about a pint thru the carb(2500 rpm). When you have about a quarter left you dump it all in to choke out the motor. Let it sit for at least a few hours and then take it for a run. Don't drive thru an environmentalist convention!! You can also use a crankcase additive a while before you change the oil. Short of disassembly- this is as clean and lubricated as you will get this motor. Ofcourse this is my method and I've learned over the years that there are many ways to skin a..... Edit- just reread the black oily plugs part. I think you need a tear down. ------------- 70 Mustang project |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 3:32am
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Does the black oily plugs make you think rings?
I'm hoping do get away with just pulling the heads and doing a valve job. I ordered a leak down test from the local auto parts store so I should get a this figured out this week. If I use my compression test gauge and turn the motor until cylinder #1 is holding compression I can assume I have close enough to TDC for the leak down test? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 10:12am
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this is an old school trick i and probably shouldnt mention it but it did work for me on a carboned up diesel engine, a couple of the valves were not closing because of all the idleing and the carbon build up on the seats.I knew this because of the excessive valve clearance
I ran the engine at full governed speed and used a spray bottle of water down the throat, as soon as the water (alot) hits the cylinder it turns to steam and breaks up the carbon instantly....use your own judgement if you try this, would i recommend it? it worked for me with no after effects except for getting rid of the carbon ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 9:55pm
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I don't think this motor is carboned up. The PO ran premium fuel and at pretty high RPM all the time. It has done very little idling. I still have not done the leak down test, but I'm thinking it might have some broken valve seals.
As I said above the motor runs great; 44MPH with the stock 351, and idles smooth starts easy. Just blows a lot of blue smoke right when started. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-10-2008 at 10:25pm
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I did a compression test and got 110 on three of the cylinders 115-118 on a couple and 125 on the rest. What do you guys think of these numbers on a cold motor?
Interestingly the cylinders with 125 hand a lot of oil on spark plugs with less than 10 hours on them. The cylinders that showed 110 on the compression test had dry clean plugs  .
I want to put some oil down the spark plug holes and rerun the test and see if the numbers change with that. How much oil should I put in each cylinder to check the rings? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-11-2008 at 5:29am
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A couple of squirts with an oil can. Use motor oil....preferably the same as you are running in the crankcase. Spin the engine over several times to get the excess out. You don't want the oil to take up any volume in the cylinder. That would give you a false higher reading.
The lowest and highest cylinders should be within 10% of each other to be acceptable. Your readings fall into the marginal category. Post back with your second test using oil in the cylinders. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-11-2008 at 6:28pm
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I'm a little confused. I did a leak down test and heard hissing in the valve cover with the oil fill cap off. On a few cylinders the hissing was louder at the oil fill cap. Also heard hissing at the oil pan for all cylinders.
Then I reran the compression test with a couple of squirts of oil in the cylinder and the compression test went up to 200 on the first cylinder. On the 2nd cylinder I put one squirt of oil in and compression went up to 140. I think I'm using too much oil? If the quantity of oil affects this test so much how can it be very accurate? Do any of you know what stock compression on a PCM 351 is? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-13-2008 at 5:06am
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Tique, on your second compression test, did you spin the engine over several times with the starter to blow out the excess oil? If any oil remains in the cylinder besides what it takes to coat the cylinder walls, then the compression will be falsely increased. Yes the test is somewhat subjective so it's good to follow up with the leakdown test like you did. On your leakdown test, did you notice your pressure gage reading when you heard air hissing in the crankcase or valve cover? If any cylinders had low readings on this test and you heard air in the crankcase or valve covers you have a ring problem. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-13-2008 at 2:19pm
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I did not turn the motor over after adding oil. I'll do that test over and see what happens. On the leak down test the meter that shows % of leak down showed 5, witch is the lowest number it it can read other than 0. I did however hear hissing in the valve cover and in the oil pan. From what I understand it's normal to hear some hissing it's just a matter of how much is OK. I don't have experience with this test so I don't know how to interpret what I'm hearing.
I'm going to do both tests over, but I think my next step after that will be to replace the valve seals and run the boat for a couple weeks and see what happens. If it's still burning oil I'll pull the motor over the winter. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-13-2008 at 4:45pm
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Tique, give me a call @ 480-365-8989 and I will explain about the leak test and what everything means. It's a very reliable test. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 74SkiNautique
Date Posted: September-14-2008 at 5:06pm
79T,It sounds like your engine's running fine except for the oil issue. I would consider just running it for the balance of the season(it's already September) do the top end over the offseason,and see how it goes in the early spring. It sure sounds like valve guides to me. You may be fine, and if not, your not much worse off than you are now and your top end will already be done.  -Mark------------- 74SkiNautique |
Posted By: h20loo
Date Posted: September-14-2008 at 10:04pm
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Marks plan sounds good and the only thing I would consider is doing valve seals right now.
A mechanic can do them in a little over an hour in the boat provided he has a shop compressor available.The seals have to be cheap. ------------- 70 Mustang project |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 10:23am
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If you wait till the spring and you have other issues......the best way to attack it would be pull the heads to do the seals and guides and then you could inspect the cylinders for a ridge at the top or piston scuff from overfueling which would sieze the rings in the piston or maybe its just plain old wore out
I dont think valve stem seals are going to cure your problem ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 2:51pm
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Thanks everyone for the advice. Nuttyskier I'll be giving you a call about the leak down test.
I think I want to get this worked out before next spring. I would be pretty bummed to miss the first couple weeks of the season rebuilding to motor. Depending on how the leak down test works out I'll probably do the valve seals and see how it runs until I winterize in late October. If it's still burning oil then do more. I'll keep posting with what happens. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 2:56pm
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I'm with Eric on this one. If you are going to do anything.....I'd at least pull the heads and take them to a good machine shop for reconditioning. And as he said you can see what you cylinder walls look like and even measure the wear. And as mentioned above, if you later decide to rebuild the remainder of the engine, your heads are already done. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 3:01pm
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if you are only seeing 5% then leave the damn thing a lone, so it smokes a little blue smoke right after starting for a few minutes then clears up, that is a valve guide issue and nothing to get excited about and can wait until it is time to rebuild. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 3:08pm
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what brand spark plugs are you using? the oil as you call it might be carbon from a bad wire or cap causing that plug to not fire. Also when/where are you checking the oil, On the trailer cold? in water hot? how many qts do you use when you change the oil and filter? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 4:07pm
If you read back through the posts on this thread, he says that he is going through a quart of oil every 2 tanks full. Also on the compression test his lowest cylinder is 110 and highest is 125. That's much closer to 10% than to 5. His plugs are "black, wet and oily" which you say "is not good". He said he is meticulous about his maintenance, which tells me he'd like his boat to be in tip-top shape. With all of this I'd think he would want to do something else besides "leaving the damn thing alone". Just my 2 cents! ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 4:14pm
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now if the plug does not fire what is it going to look like, black, oily, maybe, what if it has too much oil in the crank case? black oily somewhere, maybe your mouth should have read the other question I asked first before you decided to be a ***************. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 4:30pm
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Thanks to both of you for the advice. 79N it's burning enough oil that it doesn't hold a tune up very long. It's actually burning about a quart every 8-10 running hours. Also I do like my boat to be in top shape.
Some thing new I noticed today, is oil seeping up into the carb. What does this mean to you guys? ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 4:50pm
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so then when you change the oil how many quarts do you add? What brand spark plugs do you use? since you over looked that question and did not answer it or the other questions I asked.
Based on the analnus for the dist cap and corrosion as you called it I seriously dubt your skills as to your "diagnostic capabilities" aren't any better than my spelling and for it only to blow smoke after start up and at idle and you don't smell oil well your burning a *************** load so either you don't know what your talking about or don't realize it, found that out talking about dist with you now explain how oil get's seeped into the carb when there isn't a oil line or supply of oil to seep into the carb now is there? So where is all the oil going it's getting blown into the carb through the breather or PCV AKA BLOW-BY or it's being burnt in the cyclinders right? only two sources where it could go correct? no it can be leaking too, but you say it's not leaking, SO where's that leave us with this well maintained road hard put up wet beast of a motor the PO ran the *************** out of at top speed so that the top end can't be carboned up? run the damn thing until you blow it up then rebuild the thing, with that much oil burning it isn't the valve guides causing the issue so a valve job is a waiste of time and will not fix a damn thing in your case. Maybe you should concider how the boat was ran prior to your ownership, full bore wide open all of the time maybe? real good on a poorly tuned stocked motor to be ran that way. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-15-2008 at 5:37pm
If the plugs are fouling due to being the wrong plug that is one thing, but that's NOT going to cause the engine to use oil. My post about doing the heads was in response to him saying he wanted to pay a mechanic to replace only the valve stim seals with the heads still on. If he is going to put money into this thing right away.....my stand on this is that valve seals are a waste of time and money and that he can do the heads now and the rest of the engine over the winter or next year. Either way, the heads will need conditioning at some point! I agree that the engine is worn out. I believe I've already stated that I think he has a ring sealing problem. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 4:35am
79N, When I do an oil change with a filter it takes 4.5 quarts. I'm running Autolight plugs. My mechanical diagnostic skills are not great as I'm learning a new thing with that. I'm an avalanche forecaster by trade not a mechanic. I'd like to learn more about the motors as I find this stuff interesting, and I live in a 900 person town in the mountains and it's a two hour drive to take the boat to a good mechanic. I know the problem is blow by, I know that's how it's getting in the carb. What I've been trying to do is determine weather I need to do rings or not. When we were talking about my distributor I called the black build up, carbon. Someone suggested that moisture was getting in to the cap and I said there were no signs of corrosion or moisture in it. What was in my dist cap was carbon from too cool of a spark. The problem was an old wire from the coil to the cap. I replaced it and the performance got better and the carbon problem went away. I appreciate the help and guidance a lot but if it is annoying for you to give it please feel free not to. As for this problem, the motor runs fine, good hole shot and top end is about 44mph. I don't like adding oil all the time and replacing plugs a lot so I want to fix it. It sounds like Nuttyskier can help me understand the leak down test and I'd like to gain that skill anyway. I agree that I should do the heads and if it still burns oil do the rings over the winter. The heads would need to be done then too. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 10:29am
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contrary to all of the above, if this thing rolled into the parking lot, I would do the following. warm it up, do a compression test and record the readings of the cylinders, if they are all over the board i would oil the cylinders and then do a compression test again, if they all came up and evened out i would know 100% it was rings. oil does not seal valves it does not block holes in pistons it does not seal cracks in heads. it seals rings to walls of cylinders. if all the readings come up except for one or two then i know there is another issue such as a stuck valve or a bad head gasket or to the likes.
you may also hook up a vacuum guage and should get a good solid 18 inches of vacuum, blow by kills vacuum thats me though, take it for what its worth and start the discussions ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 11:56am
well to start it takes five (5) qt's so you will burn more oil because it's low to start with, secondly I hope you didn't half ass it and only replace the coil wire, I've seen tons of failed distributors in the lab for years I'm well aware what can and does happen under the cap and I know what kills it with and with out water, low or high current and have seen the colors and substances that appear under the dist cap under adverse conditions that where much more than your boat will ever see as they wheree done on purpose to find out ya know research and developement type stuff when you design a distributor and test it maybe? So how all this crap relate to your situation, HHHMMMM bad wires, causes a cyclinder or two to not fire like it should leaving excess gas to wash down the cylinder walls allowing more oil to blow-by the rings and discolor the plugs at the same time. HHHHHMMMM low oil supply for pump to start with HHHHMHMMMM, throw in worn valve guide seals and plugged oil retuns in the head because if the drains are clear oil doesn't pool in the heads and leak down the guides causing blue smoke at start up HHHHHHMMMMMMM so what do we do about half ass the rest of the motor like we did with the wires and jack with the heads and hope the rings magicly repair them selves while the head's are off having the valves done. GREAT OPTIONS FROM MALIBU BOY sure he's right on track oh well waiste your money I don't give a crap if you want to do the job twice pretty stupid though if you ask me because it will not fix your issue, fix it right and put the right amount of oil in it and check the level when the boats in the water and not on the trailer and add if it needs it, tune the boat up correctly, scraping the cap, rotor and replacing a single wire is not a tune-up bye a country mile. The cap's shot, the rotor's shot, the wires are shot, so you can half ass like you have been or do it correctly your choice I don't care one way or the other the motor's on it's last leg tha's why oil is staying in the top end of the motor. Hell bet you never even pull the dip stick and checked the oil after it has sat all night either wouldn't be surpised if it read higher and over full compared to checking when it is hot and all the oils up top .02 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 12:07pm
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with 575 hours, i would also say maybe somebody overheated the engine and possssssiiiibbblllllyyyy, expanded the pistons and galled the rings or even shrank them to the piston.
I have the tool to peek into the cylinders and if its scuffed all the way around it was an overheat situation, if its scuffed at 6 and 12 oclock, perpendiclular to the wrist pin then the holes are opened up and the piston is cocking on the up and down strokes. just some more thoughts to help you troubleshoot....not saying its the problem but it is something you can eliminate ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 12:36pm
I'm going to say this one more time for the slow ones here. I think he has a ring issue and that is what I suggested in my first post! I agree that he needs a total engine rebuild and if you read back you will find that I told him a head job would not fix his rings. Also if he had the ignition issues that you suggest, I doubt we could make enough power to get 44MPH. If you are so smart why did you tell him he could check his valve guides using a leak down test. So who's on track now? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 12:51pm
again half what approach? well it's the rings but do the heads first, yea right smart move. lot of blue smoke at first, why it doing that? oil's pooled in the head and leaking past valve guides because the motor's sludged up from poor maintance and the oil returns are clogged causing it to pool giving false hot oil level readings maybe? So if the rings are shot and the motor's sludged up why don't we just throw a band aid at so we can do the job twice, please get a clue, and the speedo's are spot on over 35mph so in the real world maybe 40 mph so what is the RPM at that 44 mph anyway? 4K? 3500? 4800? RPM's will tell what it is actually running on this model. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 12:56pm
FWIW, My 64 Interceptor still has the original wires and cap. I did put points and a condenser plus did the timing when I bought it. That was about 28 years ago! Still cranking hard. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 12:58pm
ok Pete we all know that's not your daily driver. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:06pm
Chris, You're correct but it still has about 900 hours on it. What is it about wires and the cap? Insulation breaking down? I would think age and not engine hours would have a bigger effect. If anything, I would think that on the newer boats these would have been improved. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:38pm
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Hey 79, not to interupt our brotherly love but how are you on 1987 chevy TPI, Im going with .210/.165 heads, 65cc chamber, which kicks the compression to 10:1....will the TPI handle it? I am camming mildly and putting a chip in it and an adjustable regulator...anything else? i was close to stroking the motor but held off cause of air volume. can i use the stock injectors and will the chip compensate for it? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:39pm
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correct Pete but it all goes back to how well it is stored and the conditions, high humidity, dampness, ventalated vs sealed cover and the quality of parts used to start with? wires do not last for ever and will crack and arc eventually, rotors caps can corroid and depending on how well they are maintained and the system operates can accelerate this process.
SO since one wire is bad usually more are bad or getting very marginal at best, all ready have excessive build up for one reason or another and scraping won't fix squat, get you going in the short term but not in the long term. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:42pm
Another member here suggest this and I just agreed but yet you want to ridicule me for it. So let's lay it on the line Chris. What is it that you have against me. My brand of boat? Is that your problem? What brand do you currently own? Some of your remarks sound like they came from 10 year old. Is your little sister telling you what to say? Take your medication and get back on here when you feel better. Se you later! ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:45pm
should might have to increase the injectors and throttle/metering plate, did you get the good vortec heads to use, one series sucks and has flow issues compard to the other. It depneds on what you are planing for the motor going fast or torque, fast larger metering plate to start then injectors later as the increased pulse might be enough for the injectors. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:49pm
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Just to clear this up a little. 79N, after we taked about the ignition issues this is what I did: New, cap, rotor, plugs, custom Taylor spiral wound 8mm plug wires, coil, and replaced the wiring bringing power to the coil. I did it one step at a time because because I wanted to see what made a difference. The cap and rotor are Standard Electric. The 44mph is by Star Gazer G.P.S. Perfect Pass. I know about the speedos. The hole shot is good compared to other ski boats in my ski club that are not burning oil.
I do not have a lot of experience trouble shooting Fort V8 motors but have spent a lot of time around motorized stuff and I know when this motor is tuned it runs good. No piston slap, or knocking/tapping noises, no spark knock, and the idle is smooth and consistent. It just burns oil and that makes it eat spark plugs, but with fresh plugs it runs good. All I'm trying to do is avoid tearing the motor down for sport. I'm not cheap, but I only have so much time. I going to take some of the advice from above and see what happens. If the tests tell me and others, it needs rings I'll do it. Thanks again to all for the help. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:49pm
wow first you said this now you say that flip flop like Odamna, "I was agreeing with what this guy saids" please. do it half ass and twice or wait and do it right pretty sure that's been my tune all along. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:52pm
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79N, we must have posted at the same time please see the post above your last.
Gabe ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 1:53pm
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AFR aluminums,(came with the unfinished not fired car) not radical, just fast and turn key, trouble free, i never F-d with TPI and and I am a touch in the dark with it. I dont want to go to much and kill this thing ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 2:05pm
This was my first post on this thread and I stand by it! Read back and get the full story before you respond. Flip-flop....don't think so. You're taking things out of context and that's an Obama move (if you want to start a political debate). And what about the rest of my questions? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 2:13pm
got it, only thing I would do is pull the valve covers and make sure the oil passages are clear so the oil can drain back down into the pan is has to happen for the oil to leak past the seals and blow smoke on start up. since the PO ran it hard and did poor maintance the rings are worn and it's sludged up so it's going to burn some oil deal with it and enjoy the boat until you are down on power and it's time to rebuild, doing the heads are only going to do nothing, yea the valve guide seals will be new, but if you remove the oil laying on top of old seals then it's not going to blow smoke like it does at start up and you've only spent 20 bucks on valve cover gaskets. So my .02 pull the valve covers look for sludge look for clogged oil returns, look for oil dripping as soon as the covers are removed, if you see any of this then clean the passages and flush the motor to clean the internals and call it a day until it really needs a rebuild might be 5-10 yrs might be next season depends on how bad it is and you'll know pretty quick by just looking instead of jumping into the unknown and assuming what it needs. So all you realy need is to replace the plugs sooner and add oil, but be sure you are checking it properly and not over filling it with oil. Pull the did stick in the drive/lake after it's sat several days and read the level no need to clean and re-dip oil is all ready drained to the bottom, now go run it and get it hot and turn it off and check the level again first thing if the level is lower than what it was then it's in the top of the motor and not draining back problem one diagnosed, pull covers and clean returns is the fix and oil use should lower but enjoy it and don't get excited because you have to add oil if anything add some tranny fluid to try and loosen the rings as a couple might be stuck but then it just could be ware as well and only a re-build will fix that. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 2:20pm
Eric I had an '89 TPI 350 with 700R4 tranny that I dropped into an '89 Blazer 4X4. I did a few mild mods to this engine and can give you some pointers if interested. I used it for my daily driver and it ran very strong. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 2:35pm
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Gabe, Chris mentioned the trans fluid to the oil bringing up a great idea. I'd put some Marvel Mystery in the crank case (follow the directions) and maybe even do the Sea Foam treatment (follow the directions) down the carb. You really don't have anything to loose. I've had great results with the Marvel! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 2:41pm
Gabe and Chris,......I'm going to try to say this in a way as to not disagree or step on anyones toes. But this is what I've seen in the past. When the engine gets so sludged up so that it holds oil at the top of the head overnight,....it is also sludged to the point where the oil will not drain back down to the pan for recirculation. When this happens, you start to lose oil pressure. Gabe, are you losing oil pressure? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 3:06pm
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nutty, im buzzing thru the 700 too, got the kevlar bands and red eagles on order,
will end up painting the whole package with base clear for the bling factor. i was going to convert to carb because i can get collector plates and skip e-check, i heard there were problems with the TPI...i dont know ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 4:42pm
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Eric, I ran the TPI in stock form except for an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and K&N air filter. I put Edelbrock aluminum heads on and ran dual exhaust (no room for headers). The cam was a Crane unit which was close to your specs. I'd need to research to tell you exactly. I had no problems passing emissions and no problems with pinging on pump gas due to the ESC. I ran 89 octane in it. The aluminum heads probably helped also.
On your 700R4, get the Corvette servo and a 1/2" boost valve. There's also a few holes in the valve body spacer plate that can be drilled and a couple check balls that can be left out for improved shifting. I'll need to dig for my book to tell you which ones. But you being a tranny man probably already have that information. Let me know. What are you dropping this into? - Brian ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 4:53pm
HHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM If it stays up top overnight.... how the hell is it ever going to get into the oil pan to start with? it's not and you will have no oil pressure. I said let it sit over night and check the oil level in the pan then compare it right after it's been started and ran up to temp then check again and compare? If it reads lower then the oil is stuck in the topside of the heads which leads to it seeping past the valve guide seals and causing blue smoke at start-up. damn Malibu clown. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 5:04pm
Exactly! So that can't be his problem now can it? So who's the real clown? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 6:29pm
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Oil pressure is good by the stock gauge on the dash. Drops a little at idle after skiing for a while, but not more than what would seem normal. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: 79Tique
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 6:34pm
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I'm heading out to the lake in a couple hours. I'll check the oil before I start the boat as I always do because it will tend to use oil. I'll check it again after it's been running for a while.
On my cars the oil is always lower on the dip stick after running. Then comes back up after a while. Is this not normal? Every car I have ever owned has done this even new ones. ------------- Work to live, not live to work. |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 6:40pm
The 'missing' oil is in the top and drains down. You are detailed?!!? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: September-16-2008 at 7:34pm
This is the quote is was responding to when I was talking about losing oil pressure. If you say his oil passages are plugged,....well it's going to hold oil in the top of the engine when running all day too. Eventually all the oil will be in the top of the engine and leaking out the valve cover gaskets as well. So if you want to label me as a ***************, you must be labeling yourself as a bigger one. Seriously,....go take your meds and get back to us when everything is all better. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |