Fiberglass recommendations
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11865
Printed Date: September-29-2024 at 1:26pm
Topic: Fiberglass recommendations
Posted By: coltsphan
Subject: Fiberglass recommendations
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 12:41am
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I need some recommendations on fiberglass supplies. Mainly the type of cloth and resin. I am going to tackle the stringers.
Thanks! |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 4:52pm
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Pete, I just went though Greg's "weeding the pumpkin patch" looking for his list of materials. Couldn't find it. There is also Bill's (skibum) thread on his stringer job. I'll keep looking. I never keep a list on my jobs and of coarse don't remember the gals. or feet on the yard goods!.
Both Greg and Bill used U.S. Composites for there supplies. I can also recommend Mas epoxy. They have a web site with tons of info and "how to's" as well. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: coltsphan
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 7:24pm
| Thanks. I am mainly wondering what type of cloth. Is a 2 oz. chopped cloth good enough? I can't imangine that there is much difference in who makes the raw materials. |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 7:43pm
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I used 1.5 oz e-mat(the mat is different for epoxy), 6 oz cloth and tape, and #1708 biaxial from http://uscomposites.com/index.html - US Composites .
I'll elaborate when I have some time. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 7:51pm
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Pete, Greg will do the details but I do want to say that the e-glass is important with the epoxy resin. They do some kind of treatment to it to enhance the bonding. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 8:17pm
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E-mat is stitched together, regular mat is glued. The epoxy doesn't melt the glue if I remember right.
From the US composites web site "The individual fibers that make up chopped strand mat is held together by an adhesive binder that is designed to break down in polyester and vinyl ester resins." ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: kevin719
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 8:20pm
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coltsphan I have been using west system on my stringer/floor project.I am pouring the u.s. composites foam this weekend. You can buy the west system epoxy glass on your side of town at 82nd st(west marine) behind the steak n shake. If you decide to use west be sure to get the pumps for the cans it makes it clean and no questions about the mix! ------------- kevinindy |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2008 at 11:26pm
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Pete, I didn't mention the West epoxy system because I feel they have gotten "fat and happy" and way over priced. I haven't used them in several years. I do like the Mas. and good prices. Pumps are available from all the sources. Do get their pumps because mix ratios do vari. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: September-07-2008 at 3:23pm
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I recommend getting your supplies from US Composites. Others have it correct, mat made for epoxy resin is stitched together thus eliminating the binder that does not disolve in eposy resin. You should also get woven roving (cloth).
I always start and finish with the mat. Apply fillets at all 90 degree inside corners (i.e. stringer to hull) as the mat and cloth will not bend 90 degrees and stay tight in the corner. I cannot remember the weight of materials I used, but stay away from the heavy stuff...too hard to work with... ------------- |
Posted By: behindpropeller
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 6:43pm
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I also looked at US composites. I would buy a 10-15 gallon kit for the epoxy. I have read a lot of these stringer threads also and one common thing in all of them is that they never bought enough epoxy. Nothing worse that finding you are short and have to wait for materials during a project.
Even if you have 5 gallons left over you could sell it on here to the next stringer candidate. Tim ------------- |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 6:54pm
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The amount of epoxy you order is certainly contingent on how you install the new floor. If you plan on installing a fiberglass composite floor directly on top of new poured in foam, then, yes you will need a lot of epoxy. If you plan on using plywood and sealing with epoxy, then you will not need so much.
As an example, I restored my badly damaged '93 SN with less than 3 gallons. keep in mind that one gallon of resin yields about 1.3 gallons of material (after adding hardner and depending on set time you order). The stringers project by itself will take less than two gallons (maybe only one). What you do with the floor is the wildcard. I would not go overboard in ordering epoxy. By the time you know you are going to run out, you will have enough time to order more and by that time you will know your yeild rate. If it were me, I would go with a 5/8" plywood floor and reduce the stringer height to compensate (so that finished floor is at the proper height. I would seal the bottom and edges of the plywood, screw and glue (with epoxy resin) to the stringers, then glass to hull sides and seal top side with one layer of matt. I also advocate replacing the foam regardless of the flooring type used. ------------- |
Posted By: kevin719
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 8:02pm
Hey coltsphan we had a bad game last night Hey I was checking on my epoxy/glass at work and I can tell you what not to buy.When I started I bought a epoxy resin from some internet boat supply and it was really bad.It was called evercoat.I pulled up the plywood that I already installed because I decided to foam and the part that I used this stuff on came up by hand?? The other that I used west on was a big pain to get up! Maybe it was a bad batch or old.Just thought that I would let you know.Kevin------------- kevinindy |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 9:15pm
This is because the Evercoat is a polyester resin. I'm not familiar with them making a epoxy. This is a great example of another reason to use epoxy. Polyester doesn't stick!! I was running next to a wood boat one day that the owner had done a "quick and dirty" glass job on the bottom just so the boat would float. The glass came off if almost one piece and the boat sunk!! If you use ply for the floor, I recommend bonding it with thickened epoxy. Screws can be used as a temporary means of clamping but then I suggest removing them and sealing the holes. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
kevin719 wrote:Posted By: kevin719
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 9:51pm
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pbrainard I am pretty sure that it says epoxy resin on the plastic jug but I will double check tomorrow at work.I do remember purchasing it from some boat site on ebay. I do know that it did not stick at all! Also I was drilling the 4" hole in the removable floor section for a floor drain that this stuff was chipping off! When I removed the plywood I drilled the same 4" hole in a section that was the west system it drilled with no chipping and if you look at the cross section you can see the penetration.I do know that I paid around 70$ for a gallon of this stuff and its not worth a damn! I am glad that the pumpkin patch motivated me to pull up the plywood and foam because I definetely would have had problems.Thank god for the pumpkin patch.Kevin ------------- kevinindy |
Posted By: kevin719
Date Posted: September-08-2008 at 11:00pm
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Yes I definetly used the evercoat epoxy.It is called everfix.You can google evercoat epoxy and it will come up.I may have had a bad batch but I will not use it again.And yes i mixed correctly this is a 50/50 mix.Just adding what little experience I have with the epoxy resin.Maybe it will help I know that plenty of people here have helped me!Thanks ------------- kevinindy |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 7:49am
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Kevin, I did find the Everfix epoxy. Interesting that it's a 1:1 mix when everyone elses is a 3:1 or 2:1. With the 1:1 they sure made it user friendly but I'm wondering if they sacrificed the strength!!
Now we know to stay away from one brand! Stick with the CPES and then U.S. Composites, Mas or West!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 10:48am
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No bonding issues with US Comp. and that CPES is amazing stuff! I've been using my removable floor section as an indicator. It's 3/4" ply soaked with CPES, 1 layer of mat, 1 of 6oz, and 1 of biaxial; and it's super strong even w/o the support underneath. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 11:37am
I still recommend glueing and screwing the floor in place. Use SS wood screws. The top layer of glass/resin will seal the screws and holes and keep out the water. To be doubly safe, you could pour a bit of epoxy resin down the pre-drilled hole before installing the screws. A rigid plywood floor really needs mechanical fasteners. I agree about glueing with thickened epoxy...just not as thick as you would mix for a fillet. A ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 8:19pm
David, I'm just wondering about your thoughts regarding the need for mechanically fastening (screws) the ply floor as well as your recommendation on using stainless? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 8:37pm
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With the pounding and flexing of a boat hull, I would not want to rely on a glued joint alone. A composite floor (as installed by factory) is very flexible and can give as needed. Thus my suggestion to mechanically fasten the floor (plywood wont give much). Also, it will pull the floor down tight to the stringers and keep it there. SS screws are recommended just in case water gets to them so they will not rust. More of a good practices kind of thing in a boat. Brass screws are to weak and tend to pop off the heads when tightening down. ------------- |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 10:14pm
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Yall please know that I'm not disagreeing with either of you....but...
There's no way I know of to screw the stringers to the hull; why shouldn't everything flex equally? The only screws holding mine together are to hold the seats down, and I'm looking into ways around that. I'm also sure that this boat won't come loose in my lifetime! 
David, I follow what you mean...but I'm also reminded of an older VW guy who told me that something has to give. I was asking about a clutch pressure plate. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-09-2008 at 11:21pm
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David, Evidently I trust epoxy bonding more than you do.
Airplanes are being made completely from epoxy and carbon fiber. Every failure of wood or fiberglass mechanically fastened I have seen has always been around a screw or rivet. This is caused by the stress caused by the fastener and the hole. I.E. Wood will split around a nail. Steel structures for high rise buildings are being welded together to eliminate the bolt or rivet stress. Semi trailer and delivery truck bodies are now being glued together eliminating the thousands of rivets in each. Greg's point that the stringers aren't mechanically fastened to the hull is a good example. The stringer will see a lot more stress than the ply floor will. You are misinformed regarding stainless steel. If wet, it's not much better than a non plated steel screw. Stainless needs to dry out to form the oxide that keeps it from rusting. (even if passivated) Stainless deck screws fail and the reason they developed the ceramic coated deck screw. You're correct that brass is a poor choice especially if you are building a wood boat. Over time the zinc will leach out causing the screw to become brittle and fail. Silicon-bronze is the way to go. I'll keep trusting the epoxy! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: kevin719
Date Posted: September-10-2008 at 12:30am
Yes I would stay away from the everfix until they improve it! My little skier was born this morning 7 lbs 6oz. Proud papa here! ------------- kevinindy |
Posted By: Sam B
Date Posted: September-10-2008 at 1:15am
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Congrats Kevin! ------------- Loud pipes save lives!! 2011 Green Lake Reunion Best of Show. %20http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3391&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1973&yrend=1973" rel="nofollow - Sam's 73 |
Posted By: kevin719
Date Posted: September-10-2008 at 1:52am
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THANKS Sam! He was actually born in Avon! Never experienced anything like this before! WoW! I still have the same little wooden skis that my father taught my brother and I to ski with! (And not tied together like the ones now)! Sorry not trying to hijack the thread! Very proud and no one to chat with in the hospital. ------------- kevinindy |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: September-10-2008 at 12:01pm
I am not sure you understand. I never said nor do I recommend screwing the stringers to the hull. I do recommend screwing a plywood floor to the stringers. Why rely on a glued joint when you don't have to. If you read ALL of my comments you will note I said composite floors (such as originally installed) will flex and thus glueing is fine (no mechanical fasteners) this is the same principle as the airplanes you talk about. The wings are fiberglass composits over a syrofoam core...everything flexes together. I know plenty about steel structures since I am an engineer. Welded connections are used when you need a connection that cam withstand a moment load/force. Otherwise bolted connections are used to save cost and ease erection. Sure, it might work, but why in world would you not just use a few screws to ensure it does not seperate. ------------- |