Alignment...but now Thud, Thud
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12327
Printed Date: November-17-2024 at 10:19am
Topic: Alignment...but now Thud, Thud
Posted By: CCFcourt
Subject: Alignment...but now Thud, Thud
Date Posted: November-06-2008 at 11:34pm
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I performed an alignment for the first time on the Southwind based on guidance from this site. Boat performs noticeably better - much less vibration and better response.
After the boat is good and warmed up I now hear a rapid thud, thud, thud when the boat is in gear that I don't hear until I've used the boat (screamed up and down the lake - good and warmed up). The noise is only present when in gear. I reread alignment posts and am thinking that my shaft is riding too high towards the front of the strut (looks like it could possibly rub). Based on readings, I'm trying to get the rubber hose off the log so that I can see better how the shaft is centered (or not) entering into the boat. The clamps for the hose are old and don't appear to be regular screws. I can't figure out how to turn them since they are more like dirty nubs than anything (no screw head). See picture: 
Am I going down the right path? 
 ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Replies:
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-06-2008 at 11:58pm
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Looks like the bolt head is broken off. If it was me I would cut the clamp with a parting wheel. But maybe you can just pry it apart at the screw joint.
PS -In case this is unfamiliar to others, a parting wheel is an abrasive disc that cuts by the edge. Usually used with a air powered die grinder. Die grinders are not very expensive & I use mine quite often. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 1:52am
| Looks like your prop is part of the vibration problem. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 8:23am
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Court,
Yes, it's time for new hose clamps. Chris's idea of cutting them off is really the easy way. Even a little Dremel tool with the little friction blade (parting tool) will work. From the picture, it does look like the shaft through the cutlass is angled up towards the bow. Your're getting the front of the shaft free to check is a step in the correct direction. The "thud" - What's the fit like on the shaft coupling? How bad was the engine/shaft alignment? Looks to me like you may have a case of fretting. This is wear in the bore of the coupling caused by movement of the shaft inside the coupling. Misalignment is the cause. Did you put the stainless bolt in the coupling? looks like someone is trying to keep the shaft coupling tight after it loosened up or lost a set screw. The shaft to coupling needs to be a interference fit. (.000" to -.001") Getting back to the Dremel, it's really the "homeowners" version of a die grinder. I never though very much of them as being a decent tool to have in the shop. Got one and found it to be very handy especially in tight spaces. Our tool makers here at the plant even have them!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:12am
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Now that you took the load off of your prop shaft, the damper too has less load and this may be the noise you are hearing, a matter of fact I would bet on it ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:30am
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Court,
I feel Eric's on to the "thud"!!! Do check the coupling fit too. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:51am
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I second Eric's vote on the damper. As long as you are taking the drive line apart apart, pull the tranny & put a new damper in. They are less than $100, & will save your tranny in the long run (sorry to discourage business Eric). ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 10:59am
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I may not be the shapest tool in the shed , but does the strut look to be a bit "tweeked"?
It would be real hard to get a proper fit at the coupling with the components now being used. Before we go talking dampners or tranny problems should we not addess the strut issue first? ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 11:42am
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back from the dead....I was beginning to think...boat doctor who? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 11:53am
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Been on a mission,trying to rat hole dollars before the season ends.
Have been on the site lurking, but nothing that needs my opinion nor the little knowledge I possess..Boat dr ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 12:27pm
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Strut does looked tweeked from that angle but it might be the curvature of the back of the strut that makes it look that way. We are going to need a dead on down the back shot to know for sure. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 1:17pm
So this means what? Why is the damper making noise and what is the fix? ------------- |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 4:23pm
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it means the springs have no load and are loose possibly causing the thump, imagine with mis-alignment it is harder to turn the input shaft causing load to the plate because it is harder to turn (pressure) and when you bring it back into alignment that load pressure is removed allowing the springs loosen and thump or rattle the guts of the trans. the cure is replacing the damper including aligning the damper when installing, which means putting the trans on the bellhousing first and the bellhousing to the engine and then tightening the damper plate bolts last. by this method you are using the transmission as a means to center the plate onto the flywheel which eliminates side load of the input shaft ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 4:56pm
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^^^ I think that's what's up with Johnny's BFN. It is in storage now anyways. We can talk about it on Monday. ------------- |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-07-2008 at 7:00pm
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A Monday visit? come around lunch and you can buy lol, I'll buy ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: November-08-2008 at 3:31am
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How long you gonna be in Cleveland HW?
john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-08-2008 at 11:21am
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at least when Hollywood is within 2 miles of my shop he stops by....we'll meet someday John ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: November-08-2008 at 10:38pm
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Okay, what I've taken away from this so far is:
1. I'm on the right track and need to go buy a dremel so I can get these hose clamps off and check on centering of the shaft. Is a Craftsman dremel a good one? (Sears is nearby) 2. The misalignment was very big before I moved the engine mounts. I didn't do anything with the set screws- the stainless steel was previous to me. I'll check on clearance of the shaft in the coupling and report back... 3. I'm too ignorant on transmission removal and damper plates. Is this a functional problem or just a 'sounds bad' problem? Can 1 man in his driveway with no lift remove a transmission or do I need to buy more tools/call reinforcements? As always, thanks for the input so far. ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-08-2008 at 10:54pm
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Court,
The dampener isn't just a noise problem - it's the power transmission coupling between the engine and the trans! It must be looked at and for $100 put in a new one. This is a easy project and doesn't require a hoist. Do a search for transmission removal and look for threads using two bottle jacks under the exhaust manifolds to tilt the aft end of the engine up. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: November-09-2008 at 10:12am
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A well placed shot with a cold chisel will take care of those clamps for less $.
Your profile doesn't say much about you, but don't worry; the tranny removal isn't that difficult. Are you handy or all thumbs? 
As Pete said, there are a number of good threads on this. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: hasbeenskier
Date Posted: November-09-2008 at 11:16am
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A word for the Dr. Your value to me is alo to include your vocabulary with the Southern humor. The well gone dry?
bj ------------- hasbeenskier |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: November-09-2008 at 2:18pm
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BJ, the well is still at a level that will maintain all the BS that ya'll can sip or slurp.
Been real busy here of late.Trying to prepare for those long winter nights and the slack that comes at the shop as a result. Having thoughts of putting the boat up for the year, but that will be after Jan.The winter here is So Brutal..... Have tried several times to call but only got a MACHINE, I DO NOT TALK TO THEM....................Billy Harvesting Honey now too, to many things to do in the South......Billy/Karen ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-09-2008 at 5:02pm
I'll bet Billy that the temps must get down to GL summer temps? Last weekend it was 70 out here,today it's 32------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: November-09-2008 at 7:29pm
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Gary , the cold is here already......Highs today require me to wear jeans and long sleeves. I hope it warms up this week as I am not acclimated to this brutal winter temps.
BTW the highs here today were 65, back into the 80's by Thursday. I just love the Fall and the cool 80 degree temps that come with her...........Eat your heart out Snow Birds ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: November-22-2008 at 9:01pm
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I got those crappy hose clamps cut and pulled the stuffing box hose up to see the shaft coming out of the log. It turns out the shaft turns best in the strut when sitting right on the bottom of the log slightly pressed into it. I think this is the source of the problem; I have no margin between the shaft in the log (right on the bottom) and the shaft in the strut (coming out right at the top, going forward). My thinking is that I need to take the strut off to have it looked at or at least try reseating it. It looks like it had been previously glued in. I unscrewed the bolts, but the strut isn't budging.
Am I going down the right road and how in the world do I get the strut loose? ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-22-2008 at 10:55pm
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Court,
Considering the real bad engine alignment you found and now the strut problem, you probably have some rot issues with the stringers. Have we reviewed with you checking them? Have you done any checking on their condition? You may be able to get more use out of the boat but not knowing the condition of the stringers it's hard to say how long. (no Guarantees) You however need to get the strut aligned for now. The strut isn't glued on but if it has ever been removed by a PO, it may be bedded to the hull with a adhesive sealant. Try gently tapping a wood chisel in under a corner. Get some heat on the strut with ether a propane torch or preferably a hot air gun. See if it will start to pull off with the heat. If no luck, it will need to be hot wire cut off. This is a couple feet nichrome or stainless (.030 MIG wire works well) wire strung between two wood handles and then using jumper cables connected to a car battery. The hot wire is pulled back and forth between the base of the strut and the hull "cutting" the adhesive sealant. Dry fit the strut back on the boat with some stainless flat washers between it and the hull on the aft mounting bolts. This will bring the forward end of the shaft up. Rebed the strut with the washes and use 3M 5200 as a adhesive sealant. You should be putting in a new cutlass bearing before you remount the strut. You'll need it for aligning the strut to the shaft log. BTW, I don't feel this is your "thud" problem. I think the guys a correct that you really need to check the damper plate out. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-23-2008 at 12:08pm
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Court - You also should check your shaft for straightness. It will be a PIA to remove it for measuring but you already have a repair job going so there is no reason not to be thorough now. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: December-03-2008 at 12:05am
This lean must be a major part of my alignment difficulty...
Any idea if this can be fixed and where to bring it if so? ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: December-03-2008 at 12:16am
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CCFcourt - That looks exactly like mine did!
It can be straightened. Others will pipe in with a good source, I am sure. I just got a new one from SkiDim & will have my bent one straightened some day for a spare. You might want to check the strut mounting area inside & out for hairline cracks. Mine had some. Now is the time to fix them. Good Luck! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: December-03-2008 at 8:21am
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Court,
Call up some of the prop repair shops in your area. They are experts with the bronze and most will straighten struts. It's really not that hard. A press, some heat and knowing how to set it up. They however can break if you're not real carefull. What did you end up doing to get the strut off? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: December-03-2008 at 11:23pm
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After messing around with a few different methods, including a weak attempt at using some wire and wood chisel, I ended up going pretty basic. I used a knife to cut out as much of the adhesive as I could all around the base plate and then used a flathead screwdriver (very tip already broken off so slightly stronger) and continued to work around the edges until it started to come loose. The risk with this method of course is chipping the fiberglass of the hull but I went slowly and eventually it came off. Don't think this is a best practice of any sort but I'm hoping I don't have to do this so many times that I develop one soon!
I'll look into repair/replacement and see what I can find... ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: December-04-2008 at 12:15am
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[QUOTE=CCFcourt] Don't think this is a best practice of any sort
QUOTE] May not be best practice but it is a common one. That is the same method I used. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: anthonylizardi
Date Posted: December-04-2008 at 12:30am
| I just went threw the same thing. Luckily mine came relative easy. I used a screw driver and from the inside of the boat i catch the edge and tap it until it came out. My http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10392&KW=anthonylizardi+strut&TPN=3 - strut was in pretty bad shape. Somebody suggested http://www.murphyspropellers.com/ - Murphy's Propeller and I was extremely pleased with their job. They charged me $65 to get it straight. Also, I had them replace the strut bearing since I stripped the set screw. If you can't find anybody locally called them. They were really nice and the turn around was about a week. The communication with them was great. |
Posted By: 78SkiTique
Date Posted: December-06-2008 at 1:33pm
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Court: I went through the same thing. Found my strut was bent. I got mine off with a little heat from a torch. I had it straightened and prop and shaft tuned, and got it back togeteher with perfect allignment thanks to the guys on this site. I'll try to insert the thread so you can follow it. "New owner problem"
Skip ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3016&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - My '78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: 78SkiTique
Date Posted: December-06-2008 at 1:39pm
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Court: This was my post. Try this not sure if it will work.
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10322&KW=new+owner+problem ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3016&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - My '78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: 78SkiTique
Date Posted: December-06-2008 at 2:08pm
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Here you go
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10322&KW=new+owner+problem - New owner problem ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3016&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1925&yrend=2009" rel="nofollow - My '78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: December-31-2008 at 6:09pm
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So I sent the strut to Murphys Propeller in VA since the rebuild was going to be 40% the cost of a new one (incl shipping). I got the strut back. They told me they straightened it so - despite it still visually looking a little tilted to this untrained eye - I put it back on the shaft to see where I'm at. It was much harder to get back on the shaft even after putting some water in it than it was to get it off because of the new bushing inside. When I dry fitted it and tightened it up, the shaft is extremely difficult to turn. When I loosen the back bolts of the strut it becomes a little easier to turn.
I expect the response to be, did you check the shaft. I tried to get it free from the coupling but it wasn't budging so I haven't checked the shaft yet. Questions: 1. Is it normal to have a new bushing make the shaft very difficult to turn, especially when in a driveway and not in water? Is there any adjustment to set screws that needs to be done? 2. If checking the shaft really is required (duh, how can you be sure otherwise, right?) then what's the best way to get the coupling free? I had bought a cheap bolt puller set and tried to get it off that way, but had to cut the bolt in half to make it fit in the space and now have a sharp pointed area of the primary bolt taking all the pressure instead of a large smooth area. Maybe there is a better, less destructive way... 3. Am I on the right track or is it time to haul to a mechanic for an alignment? Not quitting yet, but wondering if I'm getting beyond my pay grade since it's also possible that the hull isn't formed right anymore due to previous repair (can't tell for sure, but looking at strut area inside boat it isn't level and spacers of uneven sizes had been used for the strut bolts). ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: WakeSlayer
Date Posted: December-31-2008 at 7:23pm
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I am guessing your alignment is way off.
To get the coupling off you can try the socket trick. First, make sure your set bolt is loosened. Move the coupling back from the trans far enough to get a 5/8 or so shallow socket between the trans coupler and shaft coupler. You take four 5" to 6" pieces of 3/8" coarse threaded rod with doubled nuts and washers on one end into each of the shaft coupling bolt holes. These thread into the trans coupler. Start turning them down a turn at a time on each to keep an even pull. This will start to pull the coupler off against the socket you have in there. As you get it further off, you need to switch to longer sockets to pull it further off. This is because the shaft is getting pushed further down out of the coupler. It is tedious, but it will come off. I did this part of the way but ended up just using a pulley puller after I got my motor out which was a lot faster and easier. Same difference though. ------------- Mike N 1968 Mustang |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: December-31-2008 at 8:10pm
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CCF - I think you will need to rough align your strut to your log & transmission. You don't need to pull your coupling to do that. You will have to disconnect it from the tranny, though.
Here is a thread explaining this concept: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12477&KW=SNobsessed - Strut Alignmnet You may have to enlarge the mounting hole in your hull or add washers (stainless of course) to one end of the strut base to get it to be centered in your log & get close to your tranny's coupling. Did you try the shaft fit before you mounted the strut? If the shaft doesn't spin freely up when the strut is loose, then there is something wrong with the bushings. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: January-01-2009 at 8:38pm
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ah... that last part is critical. The strut (when loose, not bolted) is very snug as was tough to work onto the shaft. Do I need to call back to Murphy's and see if something went wrong?...that is, can it be a wrong size bushing in the strut? ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: January-02-2009 at 11:01am
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I would think a incorrectly sized bushing would be unusual. I replaced the bushings last year (SKIDIM's) & they had a couple thou clearance to the shaft. A higher probability is that somehow they distorted the bore, either through heat or pressure.
Maybe someone else will have more experience on this symptom & can give you an exact remedy. I'd say that the strut or shaft or both have to come off but you could work on your alignment first; then you will know where you are at before reassembly. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: CCFcourt
Date Posted: January-19-2009 at 12:33am
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I think I understand the issue better now... of course having the ability to do something about it is another story.
The engine has sunk into the stringer slightly (maybe as much as 1/4"). This has lowered the entire engine, especially in the front. This makes is so that a perfect alignment on the transmission to prop shaft puts the shaft just grazing the bottom of the log where the shaft goes through the hull. I raised the entire engine, especially the front mounts to get it as aligned and centered as I can, but I'm at the top of the front motor mount and have no ability to raise it any farther (at top of metal post). The two concerns of course are rotting/sinking more through the stringer, eventually causing complete misalignment and also wearing through the hull log, and the potential to rot through the stringer to the point that the engine collapses on the hull and sinks the boat I suppose. An idea proposed by a friend was to lift the engine and replace the 3 foot section of stringer underneath the engine and reattach the mounts such that the engine sits perfectly again. 1) Is this a remotely acceptable method? 2) I don't know where to go to lift an engine, is there a hobbyist way of doing this cheaply? 3) Am I worrying about nothing - could I just run the boat in its current state with the shaft just lightly hitting the bottom of the log? ------------- Ski Nautique 94 |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: January-19-2009 at 9:05am
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CCFcourt - It sounds like your stringers are shot. You can verify this in several ways, torque test of engine lag screws into stringers, or drill core holes near the hull.
I don't think anyone on this site will encourage you to replace only the stringer near the engine (this is called 'sistering'). That will not very strong & will do nothing about the remaining 80% of your stringers which are also rotting. As much as you don't want to, it's best to fix it correctly now. Waiting will just degrade your classic Correct Craft rapidly (cracking the gel coat on the sides, wearing out your transmission) making it even more expensive in the long run. There is much information covering stringers on this site, get a cup of coffee & start the search engine up! PS - You can rent an engine hoist at any rental store, maybe even auto part stores. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-19-2009 at 11:15am
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Court, I hate to say it but it's time for stringers - complete. Everything Chris has stated above is true. If you run the boat as is, you will only encure more damage and more $$$$. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |