Pertronix EI
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1597
Printed Date: November-22-2024 at 9:15pm
Topic: Pertronix EI
Posted By: Morfoot
Subject: Pertronix EI
Date Posted: May-04-2005 at 1:08pm
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Just an update that was discussed under ballast resistor. I finally got the right rotor for the Pertronix kit 1582 which is for the screw down rotor cap on a prestolite distributor. With alot of comm. with Carl @ vintageperformance.com(retrorockets.net)it was finally determined that an after market rotor was installed on my 88' that was not OEM. The following are OEM rotr equivalent.
ECHLIN AL-169 ( NAPA) BORG-WARNER D-195 PRESTOLITE 4-94 I hope this helps anybody out there looking to do the same Conversion. After all was said and done it took me about 45 mins to do the convert. Price was $72.00 and included shipping. Rotor from NAPA was $13.00 ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Replies:
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-04-2005 at 1:40pm
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Persistence prevails! ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: May-04-2005 at 2:13pm
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AMEN JIM!!!!! Ain't no machine gonna outsmart me. ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: jameski
Date Posted: May-04-2005 at 2:24pm
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With boats as old as ours, you have to be either very persistant, or very rich. "Necessity is the mother of invention" ------------- current boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1977 - 94 Sport Nautique previous boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=601 - 78 Martinique |
Posted By: billgatesceo
Date Posted: May-04-2005 at 3:32pm
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Is this kit for converting from old style distributor to the electronic ignition. If so, where did you get the kit for. Mine is an '83 and it has the clip down prestolite.
Thanks |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: May-04-2005 at 4:35pm
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Bill, go to vintageperformance.com and look up the proper Kit # for your app. I believe it will be kit # 1581 but DOUBLE CHECK!!! Go to the marine section of the site and proceed with your order. I got all the help in solving my problem through Carl after I ordered through them. I Highly recommend them. ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: May-09-2005 at 1:07pm
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Okay,here we go. Dropped the boat in the water this past weekend and after settling in a cove after a 15 min ride for about a 30-40 min lunch break the boat failed to start. Ran the battery down to almost nothing. Checked for a spark and got nothing. Put the points back in and got nothing. Should I go after the coil or something else. Can't believe the coil would just quit like that but it is 15 years old. Any thoughts???? Ideas?? Thanks in Advance..
Tim ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-09-2005 at 1:19pm
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I bought two coils last winter and put one of them under my seat. I had to use it a few months later. The first thing I would change, after checking to make sure you have voltage at the coil, is the coil. If that doesn't solve the problem you will have a spare coil. (IMHO).
Also, check for wires that are broken inside the insulation (primary, 12 volt ignition wires, not spark plug wires) - a "continuity check" on each wire. It could be that with all of the installing and uninstalling a wire broke or a terminal came loose. This happens. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: 66polyhead
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 12:43am
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I recently found a copy of a 98 performance mag, with an interesting article called "GET TO THE POINT" It is a comparison between breaker point & electronic ignition. It states: Horsepower comparison of a single point ign. versus an HEI verses an MSD electronic distributor on a 5.7L GM crate engine equipped with a 9.5:1 compression, Corvette alum. heads, a Crane HMV 272 cam, an Edelbrock Performer manifold, a Holley 750 cfm carb., and 1 3/4 " headers with turbo mufflers.
RPM 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 New single point 346 355 364 370 363 New HEI 343 354 360 369 359 New MSD electronic 345 357 363 367 360 Dist. W/ 6AL box & blaster coil 5000 5500 334 298 335 303 335 303 Peak H.P. is at 4000 RPM. Seems simple and cheaper, is better? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=220&yrstart=1925&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - KY Wildcat |
Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 3:54am
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I remember reading that MSD was designed by a couple of Aerospace engineers that were having trouble igniting lower fuel ratio's, thus the huge coil voltages and multiple sparks. For typical fuel ratio engines this is not really a big deal and Polly's chart proves this point as well as a lot of Industry Dyno pulls....but I love my MSD.
MSD's have their place, but in typical pump gas engines (Polly's chart is one of them) they could be viewed as overkill, but very reliable overkill. ------------- 64 Skier 66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 12:43pm
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My simple electronic conversion greatly improved my boating experience. (How do you chart that?) Maybe I am just not good at setting points. I found myself spending way too much time pulling my dist. cap. Although I do find the chart very interesting and I don't doubt the results. Thanks! (I still recommend the conversion.) ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 1:13pm
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It would be interesting to see a chart showing this comparison when the ignition systems are six months old. Especially on a boat.
Aluminium heads, a cam, performer manifold, 750cfm carb? Simple and cheaper? I'll pay the one time cost to convert to electronic ignition and take the 3 hp drop to not have to learn to deal with points. To me, that's simpler and cheaper. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 7:08pm
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I admit I'm suspicious of thos numbers, Hard to believe a magazine would go through the trouble to precisly match the two distributer's advance curves, so thats a variable.
Thanks for sharing the numbers, its good discussion. My seat-o-the-pantsometer said the MSD difference was dramatic; when I left the base timing and advance mechanisms alone and only changed the electrics. The points-igniter jump was insignificant except the settings didn't drift and could count on it starting and the contacts not deteriorating. However, the Igniter-MSD combination was truly dramatic. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-16-2005 at 7:18pm
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What is it about the MSD that boosts performance? ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 1:23pm
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All I can say is that I think HP/rpm numbers don't tell the entire story.
As skiers and drivers you understand we are more sensitive to throttle responce than the typical boater; as the carb transitions through its circuits from idle, accel pump (cam, shooter and clearance), primary mains, Power valve vacuum setting, PVCR diameter, then finally secondary jetting (often a metering plate on the 4160 and its chosen spring. Our carbs are most often a compromise of 'close enough'. Some people can really dial them in but they are rare (browse some Pantera sites and prepare to be in awe of how much there is to tweak and the methods involved) Well, you can't have Pantera performance from an 'out of the box' "'73-89' 351/350" carb unless your prepared to open it up 20-40 times and a serious investment in time and analysis. We are more sensitive to perfomance than the average wally boater, but you can't have Pantera perfomance on a one-size fits all carb. but I digress... My point is, there are periods in these transitional areas where the carb is switching circuits, where the extra energy spark becomes benificial; and an extra-strong spark can make a carb in good working condition feel and work great. Naturally, an MSD won't repair vacuum leaks on the throttle bushings, clean cruddy needle valves, clogged idle circuits, or blown power valves, or magically fix corroded advance mechanisms. Now, is 500V primary overkill? probably. Would 24V primary provide 80% of the benifits? likely. But its a simple add on that really shines when everything else is in good order. So, an MSD could become less significant if our carburation was absolutly spot-on , for all ranges, loads and inputs. It also follows that an MSD is less significant when WOT on a dyno. Please excuse me sounding so mater-of-fact on this; just attempting to make my thoughts on this as clear as I could, and hope that answers your question Jim. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 66polyhead
Date Posted: May-18-2005 at 11:00pm
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I'm sorry, like I posted before, "Im a dinosaur" No HEI, MSD on my hemi elephant, or semi hemi poly, or my 69 chev, I still keep a 7/32" allen in my wallet! I will make an exception on my tow vehicle, "yeah it's got a hemi". I'll stick with a screwdriver, and $12.00 worth of parts. Worth their weight in gold.What happens with an MSD, or an HEI when it's dead in the water, or on the road for that matter? When you go to the parts store, and their computers are down, do you still get your parts? I hope they didn't throw all those parts manuals away! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=220&yrstart=1925&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - KY Wildcat |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 12:18am
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Heh, I see there's no convincing you, polyhead, and thats OK with me. Least we can have some fun.
I suspect we're more similar than first appears; I detest EFI as much as you do EI, for your similar reasons. The day I bring my boat to a dealer for service is the day I sell it. However, contrary to your scenario I won't loose a day skiing due to ignition..with a flathead screwdriver I can move a few terminals and run straight off the Pertronix instead of the MSD, and if the pertronix fails, I can use the same screwdriver to throw in the breaker plate left the glovebox. If I could do it fast enough it would be FAA certified. 
Now you do have one of them 'radar ranges' in your kitchen, right?  just jesting!
I mean, we all got the same bug, right, thats why we're dinkin with old boats. Perhaps you'll get a chuckle..., I got a elder customer (80's) that insists on running 87 octane in his '70 Century Mk II 340 v-drive. Looks at me like like I'm a martian when I explain what he's doing to that engine. Guess it doesn't really ping if he can't hear it ...poor engine. Took me 10 years to convince him its not splash-lubricated so don't buy non-detergent oil.. same disease as me, just 'advanced stages'  ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 1:48am
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OK. Since you brought up low octane gas I need another head here. I have ran a couple of tests.
On low octane (87) with my initial timing at 10 Deg BTDC I can run my 289 up to 5200-5300 RPMs and it gets there very quick (and in a linear fashion). Yesterday I ran my timing up to 18 Deg BTC and filled the tank with 93 Octane. The engine bearly made it to 5000 and the time from 4800 to 5000 was a too long - I began to worry about rods and rod bolts after a while so I backed it down. It would not bust 5000. I was the only one in the boat both days and the weather was approx the same both days. My thought is to go back to 10 Deg timing and low octane fuel. My 289 is stock 1968 2v with the following mods: Mildly warmed cam Holley 480 4v 4160 GT40P Heads Petronix electronic conversion What's up? ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: 882001
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 2:48am
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jim thats alot of rpms! is the 289 have a way shorter stroke? do you drive a white avalanche? saw one at the boatramp with a brand new techsun trailer set up for an inboard and thought to myself i know that guy{not really}. we need to meet up sometime. you goin to the san antonio reunion? ------------- kemah texas http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=163&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990 - 1988 skinautique "2001" |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 3:03am
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No. I drive a Caravan and sometimes and old beatup chevy s10 work truck. I do pull a shiney new TechSun trailer. I've been at Chocolate Bayou almost every day for the last month usually after 3:00PM. I'll be there Sat and Sun.
Yeh, 5000 is a little high. I need a little more prop. The 289 is stock on the bottom end. I gained almost 1000 RPMS when I made the mods. I don;t have my new speedo installed yet so I don't know my top speed (might be 35 or 40 - I dunno). I wouldn't want to go faster - the boat seems to start floating at 5000 RPMs and is a little squirrely. I wasn't planning on the engine work until I finished painting and doing the interior work but a blown head gasket late last winter changed my game plan. So look for a beat up Mustang with a blue hull and white deck that runs. The boat feels real heavy so I'm sure I'm water logged - haven't had the floot out to look since I bought it last year. All that stuff has to wait for winter now. What will you be driving? ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 10:04am
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Yes, the 289 is a short-stroke engine, only 2.87" and a 4" bore. The stock bottom end can take about 7300 rpm max when in good condition.
Jim, I wouldn't reprop based soley on your rpm's being higher than 351 guys. A 351 has the torque to chug the big props and lower rpms because it has a 3.5" stroke. You already fixed the heads, got the cam, the only way a short-stroke engine is going to make the power you crave is if you spin it. It the same reason a 302 is fun in a mustang but an absolute dog in a truck. Also, if you're simply after top end alone, you might be nearing the upper CFM limits of that smaller carb. However, if may be optimal for the way you use the boat. Check manifold vacuum to see it begins to creeps back at WFO above 5krpms, thats the best way to check. Perhaps your timing was indeed optimal at 10 degrees initial already. Adding the 93 octane could have added more percentage of ethanol to the mix, which has less BTU/vol, affected the burn, knocked your jetting off too because the A/f ratio will need to be slightly different. An EFI engine like a Black Scorpion will compensate and make more power with 93 beacuse it can tweak the timing and mix, but your carb can't. It might be better to record your final timing instead of initial, and compare to standards for that engine. You might get somewhere with 89 octane, but sounds like you were right-on to start with. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: May-19-2005 at 12:04pm
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Thanks Tom. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |