No Super Sucker needed
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16350
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 8:14pm
Topic: No Super Sucker needed
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Subject: No Super Sucker needed
Date Posted: January-23-2010 at 10:34pm
I've started disassembling the Universal Flexifour I won on ebay today. Due to a Flexifour brochure I also won on ebay, I was able to confirm a interesting "T" handle on the engine. It's a built in oil sump pump!! Nice feature back in 1927 but, you didn't get much life out of the oil back then so frequent oil changes were needed.
Notice the small vertical wire on the pumps left. The flag is broken off but that's the oil level indicator. The sheet metal piece behind the wire is a graduated scale. There's a float on the bottom of the wire. Well, I've got to get the block and head checked for cracks. The # 3 cylinder and the same head chamber are pretty rusty. The rest of the engine looks to be very low hour. Looking at the cylinder walls, there's hardly any ring ridge plus the cam shows absolutely no wear!! (ZDDP back then? you bet zinc goes way back!!!) I suspect water in the # 3 was the reason this engine was pulled. I can't see any obvious signs of a blown head gasket but hope I'm wrong. Sure would be nice for it to turn out to be just the gasket and not a crack!! 
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Replies:
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-23-2010 at 10:46pm
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That looks like a neat project! What kind of boat do you have in mind if you can get her running? ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-23-2010 at 11:05pm
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Keegan,
It's about a 1918 18' launch. The exact year isn't known but I have some pictures of the boat in 1919-20 plus know the history. The manufacturer is also unknown but I hope I'll find a indication when I start it's restoration. Cool Nav. lights on it - kerosene as the boat didn't have electric. Magneto and hand crank. Also a search light that originally was carbide - like the old miners hat/lamp. It's in pretty bad shape due to age. The brass is very brittle and cracked. I'm going to have to turn new wood plugs for new brass housing pieces to be spun. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15224&KW=flexifour&PID=176251&title=my-new-project#176251 - There's a full size picture of the engine in this thread ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: January-23-2010 at 11:32pm
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What a neat piece of boating history! ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 1:56am
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Pete, good chance that motor don't know what zinc is,depending when it was used last,I found this doing a google search
ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942. In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range. In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests. A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range. However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus. Much like our IH Cub engines,low spring pressure,low compression and low rpm's make them run on just about anything forever. I gas up the one on the right once a year to plow snow,never draining it or running the carb dry.These are 60 cubic inch and 13 horses at the draw bar @ 1600 to 1800 rpm depending on what year.What spec's does yours have?  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 10:26am
Gary, You're correct that I shouldn't have stated "ZDDP" (Zinc dithiophosphates) but rather just said zinc. I'm going by what our specialty lubricant supplier here at the plant told me during a conversation about ZDDP and zinc. He's been in the lube business all his life and took it over from his dad who actually took it over from his dad. (family business) At the turn of the century, it was common to add powdered zinc to any oil where a extreme pressure additive was needed. High end motor oils where one of the applications. Whether this engine saw it or not is in question but, there's hardly any wear. I'll get the crank out and be able to see more but right now I can't detect any loose bearings. I need to make a run to Napa for some Plastigauge!! Regarding the specs, I was able to "nail down" more when I got the specific brochure. Universal actually made 3 different series/engines they called the Flexifour through all the years. This one is the second generation block and has a bore and stroke of 2 & 5/8" x 4" making it 86.5 cubes. HP is only 20 at 2500 red line. (later versions were the higher HP's) Nothing about the CR but it does state it will run on any gas so back then it would have been "white" gas plus with the low HP, the CR has got to be real low. (time to mill the head!!!) Interesting that they also made a fuel oil/kerosene version. Special manifolds were added to pre heat both the combustion air and the fuel. The engine had a small quart tank of gas and it was started on the gas until it warmed up. Then a 3 way valve was switched over to the oil and it was run through the same carb. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Gary S wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 11:58am
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Gary,
It takes 7/8" threaded spark plugs. I understand that lots of old tractors used them. Reid, Did you happen to notice the color of the engine paint???!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 12:01pm
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Pete,
I bought an old Continental 6cyl. stationary engine. Were they ever used in boats? It was a back-up in a water plant and only has 80 hrs. on the meter. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 12:10pm
Amazing, 20hp in 4 cylinders and 86 Cubes...I've got more than that in my single cylinder lawn tractor! 
Make sure you keep us updated on this Pete, I certain it will be interesting along the rebuild. Are you starting the hull any time soon or it that for the golden years. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 12:11pm
Andy, Yes, Graymarine marinized Continental blocks. Chris Craft used the Hercules blocks. Nice find. What are you going to do with it? Do you know the year of the engine/pump? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 12:15pm
Our cubs use the same plugs Pete. We used to get them at Farm & Fleet,but not sure now,there is very little of "farm or fleet" left there. We use Champion D16's for normal use,D21's are used by some but it is a hotter plug. Napa will be your best bet,as you know. Are the pistons cast iron too? It always seems funny to find them now days. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 12:36pm
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[QUOTE=81nautique] Amazing, 20hp in 4 cylinders and 86 Cubes...I've got more than that in my single cylinder lawn tractor If I remember correctly, the prop that came on the launch is a 16" dia.!------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 1:34pm
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Beleive me Gary , I'm just laughing. The only reason I have a new mower is because I threw a rod through the side of the block a few years ago on my old. Oil filter losened from vibration, lost all the oil and it blew, the trail of oil was about 20' long so I only had about 10 seconds to figure out there was a problem and react. These toys only hold about a quart and a half, they are pretty much disposable. I like the old cast iron. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 1:41pm
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just last week, i was replacing a pair of cams on a VTEC, what a set-up that is...anyways he had a MSD box on this thing and i had my left hand on the dizzy trying to get it close to time. i set my right hand on the valve cover and it threw me back about 5 feet. the only reason im bringing this up is because im sitting here with a small hole in my left hand and a burn mark...it went right thru my heart. fck that hurt. that thing throws lightning bolts for spark ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 1:59pm
I was going to power a hyd. pump for a large log splitter. I got a smaller log splitter, so the engine is up for a new home. Pictures don't do it justice thou. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 2:51pm
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I'm at work today waiting for Com Ed to do a power shut down for maintenance so I've been scouting out the maintenance supply room. I found a case of both Magnaflux "spotcheck" red and "developer" white. I don't ever recall seeing it being used here and wonder if anyone has. No real instructions on the can but am assuming both are used. Which one do you spray on first? Red or white? I figure I can do some preliminary crack checking on the Flexifour block and head. How clean does it have to be?
BTW, this Com Ed thing has become a real joke! The outage was scheduled for last Tuesday because they woudn't do it on a weekend. We had everyone stay home loosing a days production but they never did the maintenance. (broken cross arm on a pole) Well, it turned out that one of their fresh out of school EE's who surveyed the scope of work didn't notice one of the main disconnects on the pole was on the wrong side meaning they would need to shut down the power to a residential high rise behide us. I guess they don't care about shutting down our power but do care about the high rise!! Now because I wouldn't go for another work day shut down, it's back to a weekend!! Plus, due to the switch on the wrong side they have to do it hot because of the high rise and a special crew to do it hot. At least it's only a 7.2KV line!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Brady
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 3:49pm
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Pete I seem to remember reading about the magnaflux procedure fairly recently (last 3-4 months), but for the life of me I can't remember where. It had to be iether this forum or work??? ------------- Charlie Three Lakes, Wisconsin 69 Barracuda |
Posted By: Brady
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 3:57pm
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Pete I just googled magnaflux spotcheck and found all the info you should need. ------------- Charlie Three Lakes, Wisconsin 69 Barracuda |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 5:26pm
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After looking at about 12 sites on the Magnaflux, I was finally able to find the procedure. First, the surface does need to be cleaned. The red dye is sprayed on first, allowed to dry somewhat and then wiped off. This red dye will penetrate any cracks. Then the white developer is sprayed on. It's a solvent and talc solution. It will draw out the red dye left in the crack and will show up as red.
Some more disassembly and I'll give it a try. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 5:52pm
They will get more complaints at the call center Pete ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 6:41pm
Gary, I'm back home now. They didn't show up today! I understand they had a major line go down that feeds Loyola University hospital. I can understand that they certainly would have priority but no phone call. I ended up having to get a hold of our account rep myself!! Sounds like some other company that hangs wires on poles!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 9:35pm
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The thing that gets me is the higher ups will sit there with a straight face and tell you in the crew meetings that customer service is imporant. To them it is if your not waisting any time doing it! We are supposed to go to 1 hour lunches in March.Their reasoning is then we'll be there till 5 when they stop taking uverse repairs for the same day ??? Well anyway good luck Pete,I don't know anyone there and their even more independent than our place. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-24-2010 at 9:57pm
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Pete, if i remember correctly, you have a stand-by because of the 2000 crash. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Brady
Date Posted: January-25-2010 at 9:13am
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Eric,
Pete has a standby at the cabin,where power delivery is unreliable. He is talking about the plant where he works ------------- Charlie Three Lakes, Wisconsin 69 Barracuda |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-25-2010 at 9:19am
Yes I do but the back up is up north were it's needed more. It ran for 7 hours between Christmas and New Years while Wisconsin Public Service traced the problem to a pad mounted transformer. The planed outage yesterday that never happened was down here at the plant. BTW, we'd need a pretty large generator here for a back up. At peak production (not lately!) we run about 1.5 megs. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: January-25-2010 at 10:37am
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better get the Amish crew to run faster on the belt ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-13-2010 at 10:11pm
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I have been making some headway on the Flexifour but certainly not without problems. Basically the major issue is not being able to rotate anything to get to certain parts for disassembly. I now think this engine spent some time under water.
The crank pilot bearing is frozen on the inside of the trans planetary so I couldn't get the trans off. 
Here I've pulled the main and rod caps to see if I could pull it off along with the crank. That didn't work! The power take off/hand crank shaft was the next problem. The shaft outputs forward through the block casting and aft through the trans casting preventing the two from comming apart. No room on the forward side to get a puller on the magneto coupling half and on the aft end is a pin for the hand crank. Two holes are provided in the casting to drive the pin out but remember nothing rotates and of course the pin is in the wrong position!! Four bolt mains but take a look at the size of the rods. A Briggs 5HP's are bigger!! 
I went after the magneto coupling with a brass drift and got it to the point where I could get a puller on it. The tail end of the trans came off so next is digging into the trans planetary and take a look at the pilot bearing. 
Two pistons are loose and I'll work on the other two. I want to get the magnafux spray on the block and head to check for cracks befor moving to far forward. Rod and main bearings do have some light scoring but depending on what the plastigauge says I'd be inclinded to leave them. Absolutely no scoring on cam lobes or lifters! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: February-14-2010 at 3:07am
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Great pics. This thread is an engine history lesson for us young bucks. Great stuff Pete- Thanks! ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-14-2010 at 12:09pm
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Pete, This where I'd load the crank up and drive to the machine shop, nothing like damaging a one of a kind item.
Just 2 firing positions 180 degrees out makes that stroke look like a lot more than 4". And am I just seeing 2 main caps? Nothing between the #2 & 3 cylinder? Interesting thread, keep the pictures coming. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-14-2010 at 12:58pm
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possibly a forged crank??? by the thickness of the stamp lines ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-14-2010 at 8:18pm
Well unlike the typical Paragon trans where it will pull right off the crank, this one won't! What a PITA. The center sun gear (inside the planet housing) is pressed onto the crank so the planetary housing must be split. Should be real fun to put back together too!
Only a two planet gear set! Must be the light duty version! 
Light scoring of the babbit rod bearing. 
All the pistons out and did a quick one minute hone on each cylinder. I feel 3 of the 4 cylinders can be just honed. The fourth where the water was sitting has some pitting that may not hone out. 
No cracking per the Magnaflux test!!! On the head anyway! I've got to pull the valves and cam and then check the block. Looks like that Magnaflux dye system will work. Cool how the white developer pulls the red dye out. 
If the block checks out without cracks, I'll move forward and check bearing clearances with the plastigauge. I'm not too thrilled about pouring new bearings myself so maybe I could live with existing I'll see!!. Ether this engine had some pretty low hours on it or it's been rebuilt. If it checks out of spec, Alan, I like your idea that the next step is to take it into the machine shop. There's a good possibility that bearings could be made rather than poured. Eric, yup, You're correct that the crank is forged! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-15-2010 at 9:46am
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take that head right down to the grinder ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-15-2010 at 11:54am
Yes, after I find out where the water came from!!! Crack in the block or sunk is still the question?? I'll crack check the block as soon as I get the "C" style valve spring compressor I ordered and get the valves/cam/lifters out. My valve spring compressor that looks like a big tweezers won't work. The top of the springs are above the valve cover hole in the blocks side. I'm getting the impression that the water was pumped through this engine. The crank mains are pressure feed (rods are splash) and they are the only journals that show pitting. The trans is also pressure feed via the hole through the center of the crank from the rear main. The trans was pretty rusty too. No gear/bushing wear (except see below) just light surface rust. Here's the only trans part that has wear. It's the spline that the 4 clutch plates ride on. I'm thinking a reweld with hard surface filler and then set it up with the indexing head on the grinder for a regrind? The spline bores of the plates look pretty damn good! They must be harder than the splined shaft?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-15-2010 at 12:29pm
Alan, I went back into my Photoshop and lightened up the pictures for a better view so now you can see only two mains. I'll be taking some preliminary cylinder/piston diameter chaeck to see where I'm at. I do have specs for my 4 cylinder in the Atom and will be using them for now. I emailed marineengine.com about a manual and will see if they can help out. The one they list on their site is for the 3rd generation Flexifour and this one is 2nd generation. If they can't help, the specs for the Atoms engine should be damn close. No matter what I find with the cylinder bores, I will be needing rings. I already broke one of the oil control rings trying to pry it out! I haven't gone searching yet and was wondering if anyone has a source of generic rings sized by width, depth and diameter? All my previous rebuilds were easy finding engine specific sets! Also, no marks on the cam or crank gear for valve timing! Actually the crank gear face is hidden by the planatary housing so you can't see it anyway!! Any ideas on getting the thing back together with the proper valve timing?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: February-15-2010 at 2:48pm
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Pete you said you ordered a c style spring compressor but if you actually haven't done so yet I have one you can borrow. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-15-2010 at 3:13pm
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Alan,
Thanks but I found one off ebay and ordered it. $12.00! We're not talking lot's of pounds on these springs. I can almost squeeze them by hand so I'm sure this cheap "C" clamp style will work. I went cheap because I've already spent more on tools than the $200 I paid for the engine!!! First there was the engine hoist to get the engine out of the back of the Suburban. Then I couldn't find my 3 arm gear puller to get the trans output coupling off (I must have wrecked my old one years ago probably over stressing it and tossed it). Then the high end Napa tweezer style compressor I thought would work. And last was the new cylinder hone. I remember honing my Atom engine but couldn't find it ether!! Next on the list will be the piston ring compressor. Can't find it ether!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-15-2010 at 10:54pm
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How about next on the list, TOOL BOX I have an engine stand your welcome to use if you want. Hold off on the Chicago beers til I get back! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 9:12am
I checked all my tool boxes!! Now I'm thinking I must have loaned the tools out to someone and then they..... Thanks for the offer on the engine stand but at this point I feel the need is premature. Now that the engine is broken down, I can easily roll the block around and over on the work bench. The time I'll really need it is when it's all being bolted back together but that's really up in the air at this time. First, I'd really like to find out where the water came from. Then there is the potential machine work. Cylinder bore and sleeve? Valve grind? If the crank needs work and the shop can't machine new bearings, then I've decided I don't want to pour new babbit myself. It would need to go to a specialist. Speaking of cylinders and bores, last evening I did some measuring trying to figure out if this thing had ever been bored. Bores (after the 1 minute hone) measure out to be .005 to .007 over the nominal so figuring .003 piston to bore clearance plus wear, I figure this engine has never been bored. (no sleeves ether) Now, since the shop has done all my previous rebores, I'm not familiar with the figures and have always just honed to get the proper pull with the old fish scale so I have a question. Is the bore always the nominal size or is it the piston?? IE: Where is the cylinder to piston clearance? is the piston undersize or the bore oversize? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 10:08am
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perfectly good repair on the clutch hub Pete, done a few myself, if not they drag ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 10:10am
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do you have a pic of the plates? those are probably opened up too, but probably re-useable ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 11:03am
Eric, I'm planning on using the same plates. They don't show any signs of scoring just dirty/light rust in spots. I'll take the calipers to both the spline width on the shaft, the width of the spline on the plates and see how much slop I come up with. I'll shoot a picture and post when I get home today. I'm thinking I'll reverse the plates on assembly to use the side of the splines that wouldn't have any wear. The spline is pressed off the shaft and will be hard surface welded and then off to the dividing head on the surface grinder. I'll get you a picture of it too when it's done. Always nice to have a fully equiped tool room downstairs of my office!!! I've got to get these "G" jobs done while we're still around!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 8:49pm
Eric, Forgot to bring home my vernier calipers so I don't have any measurements plus the shaft is back at work but here's the picture. You really can't see much. I'll have more of a idea when I get to work tomorrow. I want to put both the spline shaft and the clutch plates on the optical comparitor. Yes, we still have one of those things that looks like a voting booth!! One thing that is confusing is the driving face of the spline on the plates is angular but the same on the splined shaft is 90 degrees! Do you think that the plates were made that way or worn? 
Stopped at Napa on my way home and spent more $$$!! One of the items was the plastigage I needed. I now have a lifetime supply! 12 lengths and $20.00 for little precision pieces of plastic!! Do you know I got the last box and they would have had to order it in from the warehouse if they didn't have it! I'm told no one asks for it anymore. Doesn't anyone check journal clearances when doing a engine?? What are they doing? Just let the machine shop handle it? I found that piston rings are available by size and type rather than by a set. Looks like I'll be ok there. Napa or on line. I also picked up the course set of stones for the cylinder hone. I want to see how far I need go to get most of the pitting out of that 1 cylinder that looks like it had water sitting in it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 9:46pm
|
Be careful Pete if you go honing it too much you will get it out of round. Then you will need to bore even further.
How good is your hone some of those 3 leg hones are poor quality. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 10:11pm
|
Pete, http://www.enginehones.com/hones.html - Ball hones can be used in place of what you have,for reasons Lewey has said.
Also check here http://www.egge.com/ - Egge Machine Company they do babbitting and I believe they make pistons,anyway some good reading. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-16-2010 at 11:08pm
|
Mark,
Thanks for the out of round warning. The hone is a best quality I got at Napa but I will be measuring as I go. When I checked to see if this engine had been bored and got the .005" to .007" over nominal, I also checked for out of round and taper top to bottom. None so as mentioned before, I don't feel this engine has much time on it. I haven't measured the actual piston diameters yet so the .005 to .007 may be misleading. I'm guessing at about a .0025" piston skirt to bore is the spec but will know the actual after I get the pistons cleaned up and measured. Keep in mind this certainly isn't what you would consider a high performance engine! 2500RPM max. red line, 4.1 to compression ratio, One spec says 20 HP but I also found another at 15! Also, I'm not worried if some of the pits are left in the one bore. This engine isn't going to be a daily runner and more show. If it burns some oil, it wouldn't bother me. They all did back then anyway! Gary, Thanks for the babbit link. That's one place I didn't find when I did the search. The others I found were out east. Boy, I sure hope I don't have to ship that block and rotating assembly someplace for babbiting. I brought my torque wrench home from work so I'll torque down some caps and see what the plastic tells me!! Oh!! A friend had a partial engine manual for the engine and it's got a paragraph on valve/cam shaft timing. Without the timing marks on the gears, here's their high tech answer: "In case it is necessary to remove the cam shaft, the cam shaft should be set so that the valve timing is such that the exhaust valve closes exactly at the upper dead center of piston on the exhaust stroke of that particular cylinder of which exhaust valve just closed." Well, that's a mouthful of a run on sentence but logical! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-17-2010 at 10:23am
|
Ive even put those plates on a blanche grinder and skimmed a couple of thousandths off them, I believe TMI still has those plates 800-462-8848 or glpp 440-951-5111, i also flip them and remember square corners. but i think if you repair the hub and thats it, you'll get another 25 years from them....rebuilding is a loose term, clean and paint ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-17-2010 at 10:24am
|
they do look like Paragon internals ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-17-2010 at 11:08am
|
Eric,
Thanks for the phone numbers. I've written them down just in case. My plan is to recondition the shaft splines and then see how the plates fit. I don't feel blanchard grinding is needed. I cleaned up the stack last evening and held them up to the light. Couldn't see any warpage in the plates. I'll also lay them down on the granite to check as well. How far back in years does Paragon go? I know even though marine engine manufacturers would call their trans's their own, many did use the purchased paragon internals. But, who copied who?? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-17-2010 at 5:47pm
|
I dont know Paragons history but know they started out in Taunton Mass. but those plates look identical to Paragon plates ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-18-2010 at 11:41am
|
I haven't welded up the grooves worn into the splines on the output shaft yet. Talking with the guys in the tool room, the subject of using hard face rod for the filler came up. They felt that the hard rod may flake off from any shock loading of the clutch plates. For our own info, we Rockwelled the original spline and it's soft! 35 on the C scale! So, the plan now is to weld up the grooves with stainless rod and then regrind the splines. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-21-2010 at 8:41pm
I've been out checking a few things on the engine today. First I wanted to check for cracks in the block so did some cleaning and pressure washed the bare block after getting the valves and cam out. No cracks!!
Now, not finding a crack I can move forward. I do not have a manual for this engine so the best I can do is to use clearance and torque specs from later flat heads. Plasigauging the mains both come out to .0015" which is the low end of the spec. 
Here's the check on the rod bearing. .002" which is on the high side of the spec. 
With the exception of pitting on the main journals, The crack assembly isn't in bad shape! I'll probably put it back together as is. Did some more honing on the one bad cylinder wall that was evident it had water sitting in it. I got it to the point where I feel it's acceptable without the engine going through too much oil and it is only about .002" over the other three. No out of round top or bottom. I won't know what the actual clearance is until I get the pistons cleaned up. Then I may put it back as is too. Next is to clean up the valves. Some look good and others I can tell are bad. I'll take it in for a grind job. Cam again except for some pitting doesn't look all that bad. Same for the lifters. The bearings do show scoring but I'll have to do some measuring and cross my fingers! The more I investigate this engine, the more I feel it went down! If I had been thinking ahead, I should have looked at the valve position on the water damaged cylinder when I pulled the head. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-28-2010 at 10:07pm
|
I have been making some progress but with small things that really don't show much has been done. I spent lots of time this weekend with a good rough cleaning of most of the parts. Having the block and some other parts like the head, manifold, etc. boiled out is still a option. However, besides the cost of a couple hundred, I want to avoid the boil out because I don't really want to deal with the cam bearings. They need to be removed for boiling.
It's always amazing how much dirt and grime a old engine will accumulate. I wish I had a parts washer!! Here's the cast pan which had about a inch of sludge in it. It was real fun to get under the splash lube pan which is part of the main pan. It's the concave raised section with the four grooves in it for the connecting rod caps. As the cap is rotated through standing oil in the groove, the oil is forced into the rod journal. Then, on the top of each rod are two holes that spray oil up into the cylinder, inside of the piston and the wrist pin. 
On the right is the trans output shaft that's ready with the rebuild of the splines. The welding and regrind went smooth. Interestingly, when it was set up for grinding, one of the original splines was off .015"!! Guess someone wasn't watching the milling operation! On the left is the oil pump. It's not a rotary gear that you find now but rather a piston pump that runs off a eccentric on the cam. I've got some Kroil in it to see if I free it up. 
I lapped the valves just to get a good indication of their condition. Regrettably, at least the intakes will need to be ground. Valves aren't that bad but all the intake seats are pitted. This thing defiantly when under sucking water through the carb. I've got a friend with a valve and seat grinder that has offered to lend it to me. I hope I can remember how to use it - been 30 years since I've ground a valve or seat!!!! This picture also is a good shot showing the #3 cylinder with the pitting and ridge left from when it had water sitting in it. 
Close up of intake seat - foreground: 
It's always funny how such a small engine can spread out and take up so much space! 
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 12:25am
|
This is a really interesting thread. Keep it up! ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 9:57am
|
Gary, Or anyone?
You mentioned a Flex-hone (ball hone). I'm going to order one and was wondering about the grit size. 240? 320? Also, since you have the old tractors, you don't by chance have a 7/8-18 tap? I need to chase the threads in the head for the spark plugs! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 10:16am
|
i might Pete, I'll check today ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 7:53pm
Eric (and Gary), No need to look for the tap. I made a "tap"! When I got the engine, someone had at one time made a lifting ring out of a old plug by removing the porcelain and welding a ring on it. It came with the engine so I chucked it up in the lathe and turned the shoulder on the body back a 1/2". This allowed the "tap" to enter the head all the way through to the other side. Then I got my Dremel out and put the cut off wheel in it. I ground "teeth" at right angles to the threads by cutting grooves across the threads. Worked great along with some Tap Magic. I did have to "resharpen it once - the cast iron is harder that the steel spark plug!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 9:45pm
|
I guess I should check the posts right before I go out and look---- I do have one if you still want,it's already in the car for the chicago beers ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 10:38pm
|
Harbor Freight has a 20 gallon parts washer for around $180 bucks and a little 5 gallon for $45.
I am loving this history lesson Pete! ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-01-2010 at 11:10pm
Keegan, I know there's plenty of washers out there that are real cheap. It's what you put in them that costs more!! Then, what do you do with the old dirty solution?? If a petroleum based spirits is used, I can't get Safety Clean to come to my house! If I used a aqueous solution it's more expensive plus difficult to control rust inhibiting. Then there's the disposal with it when dirty. The solution itself may be biodegradable but what's in it (dirt, oils, carbon) isn't. You just can't pour it down the drain. I still wish I had a washer but it's just not as easy as running out and getting one.
Now I'm using a solvent, rags and a oil drain pan. Left over solvent is evaporated and the pan is wiped down with rags. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-02-2010 at 2:26am
|
Feeling guilty after all those years of running 2 strokes Pete ? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-02-2010 at 10:03am
|
Pete, I normally buy Bug and tar remover for the tanks and 35 gallons was around 185.00, well i ordered some about 1 month ago and the guy personally delivered it in his caravan, he seemed in a hurry and i asked him how much the 35 gallon drum was.................................510.00, i told him put that mfr back in your van. ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-02-2010 at 12:03pm
Gary, What 2 strokes? The little 18 on the Alumacraft I grew up in? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-02-2010 at 1:05pm
I would have done the same! You can buy new parts for that kind of money. I have a hazmat dump station close to my house but did not really think about what a pita and how expensive it would be to use a parts washer. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-02-2010 at 9:31pm
|
Keegan,
Well you got me thinking so I went and bought a parts washer! Bid on/won a 20 gal. with stand, drying tray and pump off ebay for $75 and only $8 for shipping. My shop is really set up for woodworking but I figured why struggle with a oil drain pan, solvent and a brush cleaning parts so I'm expanding into equipment more for engine rebuilding. This is the 4th engine (all flat heads) I've done but the previous 3 were done when I did have the luxury of having a parts washer at work. Now it's onto what will go into it. At work we do use a citrus based cleaner in a production belt type aqueous washer that removes a grease based buffing compound. I'm going to have to sample a gal. of it and see how it works after playing with the water mix ratio. I'm on city sewer here so disposal won't be a issue. When the parts washer is moved up north then it will be a problem because I'm on a septic system. I'll need to look at spirits then. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-02-2010 at 11:14pm
Naw Pete I was thinking more of your Lawn Boy mower,your Johnson Skee-Horse and your Evinrude Aquanaut  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-03-2010 at 8:58am
Wow, that's going back a couple! I always wanted to try the Aquanaut but up north the lakes are pretty dark due to the orange tannins so no one had one. You forgot a OMC product on your list. The Playmate. That's the small gull wing they used their outboard 90HP 2 stroke power head in hooked up to their out drive. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Brady
Date Posted: March-03-2010 at 9:06am
|
Pete,
If I remember correctly, Watercraft did have the Aquanaut for a short time, and I think they may have rented them. I do remember seeing them being used several times ------------- Charlie Three Lakes, Wisconsin 69 Barracuda |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: March-03-2010 at 10:04am
|
I remember the aquanaut, though they were neat at the time!
How did they keep the exhaust from getting sent to the diver? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-03-2010 at 10:21am
|
Charlie,
Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing one over at Watercraft. It must have been very short lived. I think the whole product was short lived and think it had something to do with the exhaust problem Chris mentioned. Chris, I don't know how they expected to suck in fresh air. On a calm day I'm sure it wasn't the greatest air going down to the diver. 2 stroke air as well!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 8:17pm
Gary, I just came from Napa after getting plugs. First, I was surprised they had them and then I thought the D-16's (old Champ # 8 COM) looked small and they are! Thank's for trying but it turns out your tractors use the next generation plug which is a 18mm plug and not the 7/8-18 thread Champion "W" series (old Champ 0,1,2 and 3 COM). I'll take the plugs back, guess at the heat range and get them to order some. So, the tap you have is probably the 18mm. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 9:53pm
|
Your right Pete it does say 18mm,and now you mention it I seem to remember Warshawski used to sell a adapter for Model A Ford plugs. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 3:36pm
|
My stop at Napa yesterday was primarily to get piston rings on order. I was pretty disappointed with my beloved Napa store. I'm getting the impression that it won't be too long before the sign out front is changed to read "Autozone"!!!
I went in with all the Hastings rings part numbers. This was after I called and spoke with Hastings tech service. I called because I couldn't find rings wide enough on their site to replace the original 3/16" wide rings. They make a oil control ring 3/16" but not a compression ring. I discussed with them the possibility of using ring spacers but the tech person felt it better to use two 3/32" ring per piston land. Purchases can't be made directly from Hasting without setting up a wholesale account so they told me any Napa would be a great choice. Well, none of the Hastings numbers would cross over to the Napa numbers in their system. None of the numbers would even cross over in Napa's master distributor system as well! No good old books anymore so if it's not on the computer these days you're screwed!! Seems no one can get on the phone anymore and make a purchase without having the damn numbers in the computer! The master distributor started from scratch and went back to bore size and ring width pulling up his own numbers. Surprisingly I do have rings coming in early next week but I'm going back in there with my dial calipers in hand! I also have no idea of the quantity I'll see. They were totally confused as to the "set" quantity being for 1 piston or a four cylinder engine and then thowing in the need for twice the amount of compression rings needed made it even worse. Considering the cost per set was $23, I think it's for 1 piston. I ordered two sets and will see when they come in. I may end up having to buy 6 more sets! And people wonder why it costs so much to rebuild a engine. Of course it's obvious not many do anymore unless that engine is old and rare. My Napa closed down their machine shop in 2002. No business! Before paying, I made sure that I could return the "special order" so it was noted I could on both the computer and the paper work. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 1:53pm
|
I went shopping on ebay Thursday afternoon for yet some more handy tools. I've always put rings on by hand but in this case I don't want to take the chance of breaking any. Found a ring installing pliers for $5 new. Then because the piston lands are so full of crud, I found a land scraper for $17 new. Both turned out to be from Summit's on line store. Both came in yesterday!! What service!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 6:29pm
|
fingernails and old ground piston rings work well, but those tools do help Pete, and i do own them too ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-07-2010 at 9:48pm
|
Not much exciting to report today. I'm waiting on my parts washer so I can get the parts cleaned up!! Did some more cylinder honing with the course stones and then the ball (flexi) hone. Went as far a I want to go so next step is to put the fine stones back in and do the cross hatching. The one pitted cylinder still shows some pitting but I'm leaving it. The rings (maybe not enough!!!) will be in this week so fitting the end gaps will be next.
Took the wrong plugs back to Napa. This time didn't have the Champion W16's in stock. They could order them but I'd need to get a box of 8 plugs. Since I'm guessing at the heat range, I don't want extra plugs at this time plus, they are more than a normal plug - $7.00 each. They checked other Napa's and found 10 in stock out in DeKalb Il. Someone out there must have some old tractors. Well, since my daughter goes to school (NIU) in DeKalb, I'm sending her in for the 4 plugs. She might as well do something for a change!! I bought (McMaster) 10 small dia. 1/8" wide wire brushes with 1/8" shanks so they would fit in my Dremel. I went after all the trans and engine gears. Real fine wire on the brushes so they have a tendency to break and be thrown out of the brush. I'm picking small wires now out of my shirt (and yes Kevin, my turtleneck)!!! Gears turned out pretty good. Two gears that I'll need to replace are the bevel gears that drive the RWP. One is on the end of the cam and the other is on the bottom of the vertical pump shaft. The gears sit in a separate chamber in the block and this must have held water. They are pretty rusted up. I'll need to match up the outside diameter, pitch and number of teeth with a common power transmission gear. Then bore/keyway to suit and face the hubs for the proper gear engagement. (just like you would set up the rear end of a car or truck) I knew that "high spot blue" I got for my prop lapping thread would come in handy for something else some day!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-07-2010 at 10:07pm
|
I forgot to mention one problem (of many minor ones) that I did run into today. The RWP's used back before the rubber impeller are brass gear pumps. I opened up the RWP only to find one of the gears is pinned to the brass drive shaft in a blind hole drilled through one side of the gear, through the shaft and then only part way into the other side of the gear. Makes pulling the gear a real PITA!! I'll need to set it up in the mill and machine the pin out!
I noticed the thread the other day about the Joe Gibbs products. I went on line and ordered a jar of Gibbs's assembly grease. I'm getting this 4 to 1 compression 15 HP engine race ready!!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 1:25pm
|
Disaster this morning! I came in with the crank shaft and planetary gear/clutch assembly this morning to use the press to remove the sun gear off the end of the crank shaft. Without a cross section view of the end of the crank where the planetary is pressed on it was difficult to really see what was pressed onto what. I thought the sun gear was pressed onto the crank but there's a "adapter" pressed on to the crank instead. Well, what happened is I broke the hub end out of the cast iron planetary housing because I was pressing on the adapter instead of the crank!!
Now the fix?? I do not want to braze or weld on this casting. There's always a chance of breaking/cracking a casting even with preheat - postheat. Looks like there's plenty of meat/wall thickness in the hub area so the housing is going into the dividing head on the mill. There's enough room to get at least 6 1/4-20 soc. flat heads and a couple of 1/4" dowel pins in there to hold it together!! It was a heart stopping moment when I looked down at the crank to find the planetary hub broken off!! 
The center gear is the "sun" gear that I was attempting to press off. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 2:30pm
|
brazing is the best way to go Pete, years ago i would cut those drums in half, re-machine the shaft holes, braze back up and re-machine ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-09-2010 at 10:47am
|
I stopped at Napa yesterday to pick up the rings they ordered in. The problem with them not finding the Hastings part numbers I had is due to them not crossing over to the rings they sell. They sell Federal Mogal!!
The set is for 4 cylinders so the two sets I got for $24 will cover me. (remember I need to double up the compression rings due to the originals being 3/16" and replacements are only available in 3/32") The 3/16" oils turned out to be the 3 piece with I preferred over the single piece cast oils. I feel better now that the sign out front of the Napa is less likely to be changed to Autozone!!! I connected with someone who knew what I needed. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-11-2010 at 8:18pm
Now I can get back to actually rebuilding the engine and not fixing my screw - ups!! I was able to get 4 cap screws and 2 dowel pins from the housing into the hub plus epoxy on the break. It went together very cleanly. There's a 2" center bushing that shares both sides of the break so it acted as a pilot. 
Here's the back side. The center hub with the added cap screw holes showing is what broke off! 
I'm very confident with the repair. No torque is transmitted through the hub. The brass bushing between the planetary hub/housing and the center sun gear shaft is there for when the trans is reversed and the planetary rotates opposite the engine rotation. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-13-2010 at 12:55pm
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are there any bushings inside the planet gears? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-13-2010 at 2:04pm
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Eric,
Yes the 4 planets are bushed. They are in great shape. The only bushing thats needs to be replaced in the one in the center of the sun gear. That's the one that the splined (for the clutch plates) output shaft pilot runs in. The pilot was warn so I reground it. Now that it's a odd undersize, I'm making a custom bushing. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-13-2010 at 10:35pm
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Not much to show today. My parts washer hasn't come in yet so I spent lots of time detailing/cleaning. Even with the piston land scraper, the lands were a real PITA requiring a small wire brush in the Dremel. Ring to land clearances are still within the spec of .0015" to .0035"
Cylinders honed, Pistons ringed and installed: 
Using 40's and 50's specs from a similar bore/stroke flat head, here's what I ended up with after course honing, ball (flex) hone and then putting the final cross hatch in with the fine stoned hone: I'm on the high side of the piston to cylinder at .005" Spec is .004" on three cylinders but no out of round. Same top to bottom. The bad cylinder that was badly pitted ended up worse at .007". Still some small pits but it's going back together as is!! Ring gaps where on the high side too running at about .025" to .027" spec is .015" to .020". I'm not too worried about this because of the double 3/32" compression rings in each old 3/16" land. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-13-2010 at 11:45pm
Very cool! Great pictures and details.  ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-17-2010 at 8:28pm
When I bid on the Flexfour engine, I knew it was coming without a valve cover (side cover on a flat head). I suspect that after this engine went under, someone removed the cover to take a look and then tossed it. Going by the pictures I do have of the engine, I had a good idea of what the original looked like. I started with a 3/8" x 4" bar of aluminum, machined the rabbit on the edges and then the radius's. Wanting to make it look like a casting (original would have been cast iron) I used my needle descaler to "distress" the outside surfaces. A added benefit to this distressing is it warped the cover's ends in towards the engine. This is great as there's only one bolt in the middle of the cover (hole in cover is missing still) so it will pull the ends in tight to the block.
BTW, I really find my needle descaler to come in handy for cleaning up things like a engine block. It takes the paint and any rust right off. Saved me $200 for a block boiling!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-18-2010 at 10:48am
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After more than two weeks, my 20 gal. parts washer I got off ebay hasn't shown up. I emailed the seller and didn't get a responce so I've filed a dispute with Paypal. Maybe that $75 new with a $8 shipping charge was too good to be true! It also seems the seller has removed other idems off ebay! I think I've been scammed??? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-20-2010 at 6:50pm
It's been a few years (college - 2 Chrysler flat head 6's) since I've touched a valve grinder and the seat grinding set up but have a friend who loaned me his. When I did the 4 cylinder in the Atom, it needed the block bored for seat inserts (block was too far gone in the seat area) so that went to the machine shop. Got this thing home but think it would have been easier to haul the block and valves over to my friends house! That valve grinder is a big piece of metal and heavy! I almost needed the engine hoist to get it out of the truck.
Well, even though all the years, I didn't forget was how to use the grinder, stone dressing and seat grinding. Actually pretty easy! 
I mentioned before that the exhaust seats were pretty pitted. I don't know why they would be any worse that the intakes but they were. Consequently due to the pitting, I did end up grinding fairly deep with them so I did need to do a triple angle seat grind. I feel there's plenty of tappet adjustment to compensate but just in case, the valve grinder does have the valve stem end grinding attachment. All you Ford fanatics - Didn't some of the older Fords require the valve stem ends to be ground for clearance??? Next set is to lap the valves into the seats then on to the cam. more to come with the issue with it!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-20-2010 at 9:11pm
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heat pete. i will cut the valves on my lathe very slow, 300 rpm, 45 degrees, does quite well without grinding, but grinding is the way to go, I lap em with a drill and compound, attach the drill and let her rip....i use brown rubbing compound, im cheap lol, but it works quite well also ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: March-21-2010 at 1:43am
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That is neat valve grinder. Just think how much you have pumped up your biceps now Pete
Remember when valve grinders and spark plug cleaners were in almost all mechanics shops. Sure was much more fun then. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: March-21-2010 at 2:02am
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My brothers and I have a valve grinder and seat set Pete. Unlikely I will ever use it, but it belonged to my grandfather and then my dad, so we can't get rid of it. Would be great if I knew how to do these things, but my job was always cleaning. Oh well. BKH ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-21-2010 at 2:30am
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Oh you say that now Brian, you probably thought you'd never be changing stringers either. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-21-2010 at 9:31am
 Hang onto that thing Brian!! Yes, just as Mark mentioned they used to be in every repair garage in the country (Australia too ) but not anymore. I'm sure most have gone to the scrap yard and have since been melted down in some foundry in China!
This borrowed one my friend doesn't even use and he's rebuilding Hercules and Continentals all the time! He just lets the machine shop grind the seats when the block goes out for cylinder boring. Engine shops have even become rare. It's easier to get a reman! If you do find one, they are usually doing high end custom engines. There are a couple shops doing old/rare marines but watch out for the big $$$$. Lots of restorers out there that think a old marine rebuild is something special. Gary, Your a old fan of J.C. Witney/Warshawsky. Remember the cheapo seat grinder they used to sell? It was like a V shaped sanding drum that you would put a disk of abrasive paper in and spin with your electric drill. For the valves, they had this metal stamped fixture with a stone that the valve would fit into and you'd spin it with your drill too!! And yes, the good old sand blaster/spark plug cleaner!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-21-2010 at 1:12pm
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Ha, Pete, at times i will zip tie my die grinder to the the ways of the lathe and grind that way too ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-21-2010 at 8:47pm
I mentioned my daughter was going to stop at a rural Napa because it was in the same town where she goes to school and this Napa had the old W series plugs in stock. She just came home for a couple days with the plugs. These things are huge so I thought I post a picture. I went and took a "normal" plug out of my 5HP walk behind blower and set it next to this old Champion for a size comparison.
Marty, Do you stock any of the W Champions? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-24-2010 at 10:53pm
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I do remember them Pete and I had the plug sand blaster too! Did you ever make the trip down to them? What an experence that was also. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-24-2010 at 11:25pm
Yes it was a experience to say the least!! I remember my mom being real worried too due to the neighborhood I was driving into! Were you ever a woodworker? Craftsman Wood Service was in a real great location too. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-24-2010 at 11:34pm
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No Pete I was not,but I remember my Dad telling me to be careful.Some of the stuff in those windows looked like it had been there since they opened. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-27-2010 at 11:20pm
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Moving on to more surprises! It's like opening up a wood boat!
I mentioned a problem with the cam. Actually it's the bevel gear set on the end of the cam that drives the water pump. They sit in a cavity of the block and this must have held water. Rust and pitting. You can still see some of the pits on the end of the cam. 
I went and ordered a off the shelf bevel gear set from my power transmission distributor in hopes of just doing some reboring, facing of hubs and keyways. Got 2 gears with the same pitch diameter and number of teeth but found out they would need major rework. Sent them back and decided to do some work on the existing. Measuring the backlash which I had to do anyway because the pump shaft gear controls the cam end play, I decided the gears could be moved closer by .010" I faced the one on the cam and made a shim for the one on the pump shaft. Used valve grind compound on the teeth and lapped the gear teeth. They are hardened so it took a couple tries but now I have about a 60% contact area on the gear faces. The water pump is shot!!! 
The only way a gear type pump will work is tight tolerances between the gear teeth and housing. .0005" on a side is new - I have .020!!! Between teeth new is .004" - I have .040"!!! I emailed Depco with pictures. No name or numbers on the pump. I'm crossing my fingers on this one hoping they may have a housing and gears. If not, it's major machining time for rebuilding it. In preparation to cutting a new exhaust/intake manifold gasket, I set the manifold up against the block and felt a distinct rock/wobble. Got the straight edge out and found that the manifold is warped. I'll have to take it to work on Monday and set it up on the Bridgeport!! At least the valves are in. I'll adjust them tomorrow.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: March-27-2010 at 11:27pm
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Looking good Pete! I hope it sounds a great as Boat Dr.'s dart when you fire it up.
Have you thought of converting the water pump to a rubber impeller? Maybe insert a curved plate to compress the vanes. The judges will never know - unless they read ccf! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |